Kangxi Famille Verte Charger -genuine?

[JjGhandi]

Hi Peter, Stan, everyone else,


I see this Famille Verte charger being sold as Kangxi.
It seems quite right to me, except for the mark.
It's off center and so dark blue, it seems almost like it's on glaze painted.

Similar dish in the book Famille Verte by J.A. Jörg - from the Groningen museum.

What do you think? Genuine or not?
37cm width, 7,3cm height

Thanks in advance!

Kind regards,

JJ

[JjGhandi]

More pics

[peterp]

This would be a 'wucai' plate in Chinese. Wucai means 'five colors' although there are only four. Wucai is an older decoration type than any other. Only green-red ones are still earlier. These decorations are not using enamels, and they should feel flat to the touch.
If you have already seen similar items in museum (catalogues) like that you mention, or the Prinzessehof mentioned in the text of the image, their information should be reliable. They have all the imported wares of those eras.
To me a slanted foot rim, the underside decoration and mark look authentic. Theplate won't be cheap, though.

[JjGhandi]

Hey Peter,


Thanks for your clearance on the charger, greatly appreciated.
Wucai indeed, I was mistaken.

I often see these Kangxi chargers with a larger diameter having a double foot rim, to give more support to the base I assume?
I'm wondering why this one hasn't. Is that normal?

Kind regards,

JJ

[peterp]

I don't really know. We do not see large Kangxi items, except in museums. Anyway, not all large plates/chargers do have this, it is probably dependent on the thickness of the bottom, and the double rim may not have been applied by all kilns. The thin plates may be more in need of one to avoid sagging. But be careful, many fakes do have double foot rims too.

[Stan]

In my opinion, the black lines and the decoration look to crisp and the rim edge that I can see looks like it was touched with at grinder, it dose not look natural, a hands on inspection is recommended.

[JjGhandi]

Hi Stan,


Solid remark about the grinder. Quite some wear on the edges in opposite of the rest of the charger.
Although, there is a restored hairline to the side, pic below.
This gives me a bit more confidence, although I'm not 100% certain just yet.

The black contour lines seem possible to me.
Other very similar pieces in museums seem to have them too.
Although I don't have zoomed in pictures to watch the details I can still see the black contours pretty well.

I'll post a link to an online catalogue of the Princessehof museum in the water cooler board, quite interesting.

Thanks again,

JJ

[peterp]

Stan is right about the edge chipping, although it does not necessarily have to be from a grinder, just slightly hitting it with a hard object will do. I want to add that in this picture the inner of these chips looks snow white, as if they were new. Old ones would be discolered from dirt. If this is all around the top rim this way, then there are probably too many chips to be from natural usage, meaning they could be intentionally made. In that case I would recommend to stay away.
Such chips usually develop by hitting the plate with a hard object or another porcelain item, or hitting a faucet when washing it, etc., but if there are too many this is suspicious.

Chips are not flea bites aka rim frittings, which develop on thin rims during usage; these are the result of the glaze being removed during use. But the white interior of these chips exposes the clay, and this requires a certain force to achieve this. Too many and too regular distancing between them could always mean they were artificially created..

[JjGhandi]

Hi Peter, Stan,


Point well made.
There really are too many chips, it doesn't add up.

Better to leave it.


JJ