Blue and White Vase

[bokaba]

I was wondering if this vase is 19th Century or a modern reproduction. It looks like the neck may have broken at some point and someone trimmed it.

Thank you

Bokaba

[Stan]

The shape looks very Japanese, but the decoration looks Chinese, the Japanese were always copying the Chinese, Im thinking that this is a large Saki bottle that the neck has been broken off, if so it would be late 19th century, lets wait and see what Peter says.

[Mat]

The painting is totally Chinese IMO, I do not think this has Japanese origin.

[Stan]

Thanks for replying Mat, I agree the decoration looks Chinese, but I have never seen a Chinese bottle vase like this, did the Chinese make bottle vases in this form, the shape is Japanese and I have several items that the Japanese painted with Chinese figures and decoration I also have a large Japanese bottle vase that is same shape and the neck is still intact.

[peterp]

What Matt probably meant is that it is a 100% Chinese motif. Yes, the only thing that I am not accustomed to is the roof of the pavilion in the background, but it looks not Japanese either.
Anyway, this type of item can be difficult to evaluate via pictures. Weight is important too, as later items may be heavy due to the dense clay used. It is also important to check if there are age and usage signs, and whether the upper and lower parts of the body were made separately.

I'm afraid bokaba has still not got the importance of the base for authentication and dating. The view of the bottom from straight above is of little use. What is required is a view or views at an angle(can be partial), showing the shape of the foot rim (its cross section shape) including the corner where it is attached to the base (rounded or not?). A view of the base area at an angle may show any depressions or indents.
Closeup views of the blue color (partial) and glaze, and especially also any blemishes can only help. A view of the foot rim, showing the line where glaze and unglazed rim meet may be nice too.

This is not an easy to evaluate item. Not something you can decide by an overall view of the decoration.
Also, was the neck cut off? This is a standard Chinese shape, but usually the neck is a bit longer.

[peterp]

Are there boats painted on the back? Any close-up shot available showing them more detailed?

[Stan]

I think Mat is right, Chinese, the Shape would be a pear shape, the saki bottles that I was referring to has more of a bulbous shape and long neck, it is difficult to say for sure  with out the additional photo's that Peter has mentioned, I was thinking the neck could have been longer as a saki bottle but after studying chinese shapes it could have had a flared rim that is missing as well.

[peterp]

This shape is called a 'gall-bladder vase' in Chinese due to its shape; can't remember the English name right now.
It is a very common shape among Chinese porcelain. There is nothing wrong with the shape apart from the neck being on the shorter side. That is why I mentioned the possibility of it being cut off. That is done usually when the mouth or neck is damaged. Contrarily this shape is uncommon in Japanese porcelain. Sake bottles have a bulb shape with only a short neck and they are much smaller. They are only used to hold the heated rice wine before pouring into the cups.

[Stan]

Im not sure if you would call this a Saki bottle it is 53.9 cm tall, I have had this for over 30 years, it looked similar to Bokaba's vase, but when I compared them side by side mine is bulbous as mentioned, would Bokaba's vase, the shape be called Yuhuchunping ?

[peterp]

Stan, Yuhuchunping is more similar in shape to a sake bottle. It indeed looks similar to the latter, but there are some differences in prportions. Yuhuchunping was more frequent in the Ming (early) and Yuan dynasties, as far as I know.
What you show here is another shape, but I could not tell its name right away. The Chinese have lots of names that describe the body shape (and sometimes the shape of the mouth). I'm not sure if this would be a Tianqiuping, because of the lip at the mouth. But it has essentially a body shape that is different from that of bokaba's. That reflects in the name.
Look at this page: alaintruong2014.wordpress.com/tag/tianqiuping/  You will see images of all the shapes discussed here. The body of the first vase illustrates the difference between tianqiu ('ping' means vase, bottle) and the gall-bladder shape.
1. This image search result provides an overview over the variations of tianqiu shapes only. Yours may belong to this. tinyurl.com/yaf5vu8s
2. This shows an overview of the Yuhuchunping shape:  tinyurl.com/yd6795h6
3. And this is an overview of the gall-bladder shape: tinyurl.com/ya2k2yvt
The neck should not be straight up. Please note that the largest body diameter is farther down than that of the Tianqiu shape, which often has a ball shape.

[peterp]

The multitude of names the Chinese language has for the different shapes is very confusing. For more ancient shapes they even use archaic names/characters that are not in use at all in everyday Chinese.

[Stan]

Thanks Peter for the sites, good examples.

[peterp]

Back to bokaba's vase. some features are resembling those of a specific Qing dynasty period, while another seems to be later, but the current pictures have nothing definitive. These pictures alone are just not sufficient to show if something is authentic or to evaluate age.