Guangxu/Republic Millefleur Plate?

[bokaba]

Does this millefleur pattern plate appear to be Guangxu or Republic? It has an iron red Qianlong stamp, but doesn't look like there are many signs of age.

Thank you

Bokaba

[Stan]

Hi bokaba, The colors are 20th century colors, I would like to point out that lately I have been seeing a lot of Qianlong marks like this on porcelain, makes me wonder, I bought some of it my self, the artist is vert skilled and the ones I have look like they have age, I will post them, I always get a little suspicious when I see a lot of something all at the same time, just a word of caution, other than that is looks like republic period to me 1912 - 1949.

[bokaba]

Thanks Stan. Peter do you think this is Republic? Here is another picture of the back.

Bokaba

[heavenguy]

Looks a little fishy to me...

[Stan]

I agree Heavenguy, thanks Bokaba this photo shows a much clear picture of the foot rim and detail, I think this is late 20th century, the bottom looks new to me.

[peterp]

Guangxu items do have color decorations on the backside, but neither Guangxu nor early republic items I know do have six character Qianlong marks of this type, or very seldom. They have four character underglaze blue marks with Kangxi for the Guangxu reign, and Qianlong reign for the republic period normally.
I can not tell for sure, but it looks a bit too pristine. I would buy that only if it were from auction. You should check out 19th century and 20th century millefleur items and compare their designs. Millefleur (millefiori) decorations were not plenty at all before the 20th century.
To me the mark itself would already be a warning.

There is a type of porcelain items that I call borderline items. They be old and unused, but often they are just new. Often these have decorations of the late Qing dynasty or republic period.  They need a hands-on inspection.
You cannot rely on decorations and marks. You also have to take into account the whiteness of the glaze, consistency of the clay at the foot rim, glaze bubbles, and more.These are more difficult to copy. But most important is always the base, it tells us more than everything else.

[bokaba]

Thank you Peter. I had a hunch it was not old because of how perfect everything looked. I know the thousand flower pattern is often faked. The quality of the pattern does not look to be what I have seen in late 19th/early 20th Century pieces. The oldest thousand flowers pattern I could find was this one, dated mid-late Daoguang Period (from "Export Porcelain in North America").

Bokaba

[peterp]

What bothers me is the millefiori plate. This decoration started in the Qianlong reign, as far as I know. One of the Chinese names this decoration has means "hundred flowers that show no ground". The other is "hundred flowers that do not fall on the ground". The Qianlong and 19th century plates I have seen until now either showed no ground or it was imperceptible; everything is petals.  Some might show a yellow or gilt ground that is not distinctly visible. None of the Qing plates I viewed had a black background. Two factors that leave questions to answer.
Again, these plates were not plenty in the Qing dynasty,. Their production increased only later, it appears.
Careful with the marks, it is too easy to believe that an item is of the period that a mark shows.

[bokaba]

Thanks for your explanation Peter. The dating of the millefiori plate in the export book might not be correct. It is my understanding that Daoguang marks were popular on millefiori pieces from the late Guangxu and Republic, so perhaps the author assumed it was period. The Peabody Essex catalog (from which the photo was sourced) does not appear to be available online for corroboration.

For Qianlong millefiori, we would expect to see densely packed flowers and foliage such as this example from the Mus?e Guimet in Paris:

gotheborg.com/glossary/millefleur.shtml

Here is a Daoguang period millefiori with substantial ground. It is marked "Shende Tang zhi," and if an authentic mark, would indicate the bowl was made in 1831 for the Daoguang Emperor's main residence, the Hall of Prudent Virtue.

Bokaba