Small Blue & White Plate-Some Advice

Started by Lee Seng Kong, Jun 23, 2017, 10:00:33

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Lee Seng Kong

Hi Peter,

I was told by an antique dealer that this small plate is a Early Ming plate because of the very dark black-blue decorations and the art-work. The white back-ground is of more-or-less a whitish beige color.

Dimension:- H 3.3 X 14.8 Dia. (cm)

General note:- For antiques which I buy directly from owners, I go by my little knowledge based on the criteria which I mentioned before.

For antiques which I buy from antique dealers, coupled with the above, I rely on my trust in them since I became their customer over many years, and hopefully, they valued my trust in them.

Appreciate  your advice so that I can find out whether my trust was misplaced.

Kindly note that whilst the photo showed  the date/year when the photo was taken, it is not the date/year when I bought the this case, I would say, around late 1980s.

From what I understand, this forum do not value an item submitted......but I will put it another way....I bought this item for about USD is it a fair buy.

No issue with me if you are not allowed to advice on the aforementioned question.



I have two or three dishes with this design, which are about Xuande/Zhengtong reign. The black color is not necessarily indicative of age. In my ebook I have an example of two dishes from the  Qing dynasty which are from the same period, kiln and design, but completely different underglaze blue colors. One of them is blackish, the other a brighter blue. The pigments used were often a matter of availability and/or cost.

I have some issue with the outlines painted in your plate, and want to have a look at my samples and books to make sure, when I am back. The foot rim needs also to be checked.
Ming dynasty foot rims can have different shapes and height according to period. So sometimes they also be used to verify the period of manufacture. Later copies often ignore the foot rim shape and just use the rim shape current at the time a copy was made.


I have had a look at the samples, and also at some in a booklet. My doubts were confirmed, although I cannot tell for sure if this is a fake or not.
Basically, the dishes are only two centimeters less than your in diameter. Both are painted in a style that does not show leaf ribs. A leaf or half of it is painted in a more simple way. Here the outlines and single ribs are all painted first and then filled, quite a different style. The foot rim is not clearly visible, but is is straight up on the inside and outside, or is it slanted? Is it low? They should be, if they are from the same period.
I will try to take pictures to show what I mean.

Lee Seng Kong

Thank you Peter

Based on your advice, I will check accordingly all measurements again...take photo of the foot-rim at an angle (according to what I have learnt from this forum)..... and revert to you.

Off hand, I can say that the foot-rim is short....but I will give you the measurement.

And thank you in advance for the pictures which you intend to send...and actually.....I had  thought of asking you to add some pictures to demonstrate what you actually meant whenever you describe something in words, so that all interested participants can get a better understanding of your advice.

Lee Seng Kong

Hi Peter,
Here are some additional info.
i) Straight or Slant Foot-Rim:-
Visually , the inner foot-rim appears straight up from the internal base.
But being and Engineer, I took a step further by setting the edge of a steel ruler flat on the base, against the base of the up-stand of the foot-rim?.ie trying to get a right-angle?..however , there is a gap of 1 to 2 mm between the edge of the ruler and the top edge of the foot-rim, depending on the where I spot the ruler on the circumference of the base??but then again, the base surface is not 100% flat?.so this 1 to 2 mm  out (from right angle) should be within tolerance since the item was hand-made.
The outer side of the foot rim definitely slants inwards towards the rim of the base, and this feature is quite obvious.

ii) the height of the foot-rim when measured from the internal base, is about 5 to 6,mm

iii) the rim is confirmed as 14.8 mm, and the base rim is around 8.2mm

I have attached some additional close up photos for your expert eyes.

Another thing,  the back  ground is more greyish than white, although this item is classified as Blue and White??.but then again, this colour is also depicted in the ?Ming Guan? which  posted a couple of weeks before.
I would like to your photo demonstrating the art-work on the leaves and stem


Your plate looks just different, even the glaze, for similar period items. Also have a look at the base. Could be yours was made later?!


The base... the foot rim looks the same with both, despite they were apparently made at different times or in different batches. I could not tell for sure if yours is authentic or not, I just have not seen one like this.

Lee Seng Kong

Hi Peter,

For sure yours and mine looks different in terms of quality of the art-work and pottery, and, moreover,  both your plates are also vastly different.

Mine has a fairly thin wall and intact .....thus,  giving it a high resonance.

Apart from that, I  am no wiser.......only  relying on you to advice me on its age .....whether likely early Ming as I was adviced by my antique dealer, or otherwise.

Perhaps, someone else out there has similar wares to post for comparison also. ....that will be interesting.