Chinese blue and white censor

[Stan]

Hi Peter, it has been awhile since I posted, I have been really busy with work, that I have not had time for anything, I just picked this up and a local auction, the censor was covered in grease, it looked like it might have been sitting on top of a cupboard in a kitchen, it cleaned up nicely with soap and water, Have you ever seen anything like this before, the shape seems a little unusual and the twig handle, it almost looks like a wine cooler if it did not have a lid, the color and the glaze look similar to Chinese export Canton blue, but I do not think that this is export, your expertise is appreciated, I will post 12 photos, also on top of the lid there is a white dot in the center, to me it looks like the handle had been replaced with a twig handle but it looks like it was done when it was made, thanks for your help.

[Stan]

Here are four more photo's to view.

[Stan]

Here are the last set of photo's for viewing, thanks.

[Stan]

Sorry, I forgot to give you the size, it is 32 cm high and 27.9 cm wide, thanks again.

[peterp]

Hi Stan,
Censers don't have this shape, usually. Basically there are two types - one is filled with sand or similar, and the incense sticks are thrust into the sand. They usually have not lids. The large ones are mostly of this type. The other have lid (or may be open) and are used with powder incense. If this were a censer, it would have to be for the latter. However, it is much too big, especially too high. If there were powder incense on the bottom the incense may get extinguished due to lack of air down there. I do not exclude some special use, though.
Further, this is not a traditional Chinese censer shape. My first impression was that it was Japanese, especially the decoration at the side. But there is a Chinese mark. But obviously it has age.

I would consider if it was made in China for the Japanese market, or if the mark was added in Japan.
I believe you have more material/books to check if the decoration could be Japanese than I do. Even the lid decoration looks Japanese to me.

Don't you think it could be Japanese?  The only thing that speaks against it is the mark...

[peterp]

By the way, cylindrical censers are usually much smaller. All those with a large diameter either have feet or are bowl-shaped. This is to speak of the traditional Chinese censers.
Do you think the body and lid could be from different items, originally?

[Stan]

Hi Peter, this has me stumped as well, I have never seen the Japanese copy a Kangxi design like this using the deferent shades of blue and the brush strokes as shown on this lidded jar, only on Chinese porcelain, this is very detailed, Ive never seen such detail on Japanese blue and white, I wonder if it could have been a special ordered piece, I have seen similar twig handles on Canton blue, I bought it at an auction and the auctioneer said it was Chinese, I believe that the Chinese and the Japanese used this honeycomb pattern in their designs, the estate that this came from had a lot of Canton blue and very large lidded bowls that I have never seen before, I will keep my eyes open for one similar, but Im starting to believe that it was exported specially made for someone that more than likely designed it.

[Stan]

By the way, the lid was made for the Jar/censor/pot? the pot has a tooled area for the lid to fit and the lid fits perfectly the odds of finding a lid that fits perfectly with the same colors of blue and the same twig detail at the base of the twigs, the odds of matching would be phenomenal I think.

[peterp]

We have been taught a bit about the different patterns, and when their use started. I do not remember that this one was one of them, but I believe having seen it somewhere. I would be interested to learn if you find any proof as to whether it is Chinese or Japanese.

As to the lid, I once saw a Chinese display two or three batches of different lids he collected. Dozens of them. These can be sold at high prices to those who miss a certain lid. Sometimes the lids are clearly from a different batch as the decoration is dissimilar. Was just a thought...

[Stan]

I thought the same thing when I bought it that the lid could be from something else but at the areas on the lid and the base the branches/ twigs have star figures where it is fastened to the lid and base, that I have never seen, if we could trace the origin of that I think that would tell us where it was made, the closest thing I have ever seen to this is canton blue ware, with a 10x loop the painting style and brush strokes and the blue and the bubbles in the glaze are identical, when I first got it the lid was covered in grease and it was hard to see, until I  cleaned it up and then I saw all the similarities, the only difference is the design, but it would be almost impossible to continue the honeycomb design on to the lid being that it is reticulated, if this was specially made for an export customer, we may never know.

[Stan]

Hi Peter, I have been comparing this to Canton blue, everything looks the same, but I just noticed there is a difference, where there is no glaze on  the foot and rim where the glaze meets the unglazed area there is a fine orange line on the base, the lid the orange is a little more obvious, I do not see that on the Canton blue that I have, does that mean anything to you?

[peterp]

I noted that Stan. I did not mention it because occasionally this does occur on Chinese porcelain (see the ebook), but I have not seen it this way. I read somewhere that one feature where Japanese and Chinese porcelain can be distinguished is the orange line. But that was specifically for pure white porcelain. I do not know if it does apply to other items too. I would assume it is a kiln related feature, because the mining of clay was usually done in the kiln vicinity. The orange line is related to iron content.
BTW, I am not talking about the blue color being different but rather about that pattern on the side. Specifically it is the flowers inside the honeycomb pattern. Also, the garland type pattern between the flowers, at the very lower edge of the lid decoration is more common in Japanese porcelain.

[Stan]

You are probably right Peter, maybe it is Japanese, I have never seen one like this and you are right again about the flower decoration, thanks for your knowledge, usually though old Japanese porcealin with this much detail would be transferred on the piece, so being hand drawn would make this a nice Japanese piece, thanks Peter for all your help.

[peterp]

I am not that sure that the item IS Japanese, Stan. There is another similarly shaped pot/vessel which is all covered in prunus blossoms, but has a different lid. It looks distinctly Japanese but is in fact Chinese.
But I still have reservations about this lid. It makes only sense with a censer, which I think it is not. And the decoration appears to be slightly different. I see such minor differences often on items when there is a replacement lid. Just keep open for both possibilities.
BTW, I see that some Canton plates have similar rim decoration as shown on the side, but I am still to see one on a B/W item. It does not seem to be common on Chinese domestic porcelain.

[Stan]

Hi Peter, I wonder if this could have been Chinese export to Japan, I know that the estate that this came from had a business in Japan, I purchased some export boxes that was exported from Japan to Portland Oregon where this estate was  and they are from the 20's at least.