Large blue and white bowl ?

[Stan]

Hi Peter, I just purchased this, the antique dealer said that a young man just inherited is grandfathers collection,  and this is one of the items, I am at a loss because I have never seen a dragon painted in this fashion where the drawing of the dragon goes from the out side of the bowl and then continues to the inside where you have two dragons chasing a flaming pearl , I would like to point out a few things first the porcelain is very dense and light will not shine through it but it makes a nice bell sound when you klick it with your fingers, also the the white ground is very thick and it is difficult to see the hand drawing because of the bubbles in the glaze, there are rust spots but no imperfections that I can see, please let me know what you think of age, the bowl is 28.19 cm wide and 12.6 cm tall, thanks, I will post 12 photo's to view.

[Stan]

Here are more photo's to view.

[Stan]

Here is the last set of photo's to view, also I forgot to mention that the blue is a little darker than what is shown.

[peterp]

Hi Stan,
This is a common decoration which the Chinese call "over the wall dragon", with part of the dragon being painted on the outside and part inside. This decoration started in the 18th century, but there are many fakes.
I'm afraid this is one is a more recent fake. The base is not right. The foot rim is a bit too broad, and its connection to the bottom is too rounded, perhaps. But the mark is the real obstacle. It  should be a Qianlong imperial mark, however, even imperial marks of that type were hand painted. The lines of this one are so straight that obviously some tool was used for drawing them.
The tip of the dragon tail looks as if it were later too. At the most I would give it late Qing, but the base and mark make it all look like a more recent item.

I would be especially careful when such "second hand" stories are told. While some may be true, some are invariably inventions to justify or support authenticity of items. Did the dealer mention if the seller was Chinese? In almost every Antiques Roadshow program I watch on the Chinese internet there are stories of items handed down by their ancestors, which then turn out to be recent products.
Higher density means a higher ring, but 20th century porcelain is a finer consistency and will mostly produce a high ring. So this method is not applicable for modern items.

[Stan]

Hi Peter, the mark is claerly hand drawn, with a loop you can see where they started and where it gets slightly thiner at the finish of the stoke, I took the photo's in direct sun light and angled the shot so the sun would not reflect but looking at it straight on, it is not as straight as it appears in the photo's  and the glaze is very thick making it more difficult to see, with the loop it is very clear that it is hand drawn, my concern was the bottom, like you said The inside foot where it meets the base is rounded, I looked at a couple of late 19th century vases and they have a slight angle and then rounded at the bottom, not as much as this bowl, so possibly late Qing, One think I would like to point out is that no light can shine through the bowl and that this is very heavy, does that mean that the porcelain is high in iron, the reason for asking is early republic and republic items are very transparent when you shine a light through it, I do this to see how the item was made, if it was turned on a potters wheel you can see the shades of thicknesses from the turning some areas are thicker than other where a mold would all be the same, but on this bowl I can not see anything.

[peterp]

Stan...I still have doubts about this.
The thickly potted items with this decoration are all chargers, glaze color similar as this one, but the smaller dishes and cups are thin and have a different glaze and blue pigment.
The character lines even in the imperial marks I have seen were all freehand painted. The straight lines in this mark look as if they were painted very straight with the help of some line tool, just a bit too straight in my view.  Some, but not all, of the better Qianlong marks had the lines marked with small punctures in the glaze, but the were still freehand painted. The marks on minyao porcelain are often very negligent in every way. Do you see any bubbles over the mark lines? Are there any bubbles in the decoration?

Underglaze blue zhuanshu marks were predominantly used  from the Qianlong to the Xianfeng reigns. You can not except to have a late Qing dragon tail and an imperial Qianlong mark in the same place. Up to now I have found no such neat Qianlong zhuanshu marks used with late Qing items. Non-imperial Qianlong marks are usually not that neat. See examples under "selection of marks".

There is one other thing, are there two dragons or is there one dragon going "over the wall" twice?
Either way it would be more than unusual. With all of such items it seems normally to be only one dragon, and the (whole) back part of the body is on the outer side (or lower side with plates or dishes). Its body does not pass twice over the rim.

You will have to put more research into verification of this.
For general information only: tinyurl.com/qx2vtcz
Please note that some of the items may be fakes.

[Stan]

Thank you Peter for your close examination, I wish you could do a hands on inspection because you would clearly see that the mark is drawn free hand and the lines are not as straight as if a tool would have been used, also the thickness of the porcelain at the top edge of the bowl is only 3.302 mm thick and then from that point it gets thicker from the top to the base where it is the thickest, the mark and the decoration are under a very thick virteous layer with large bubbles over the mark and decoration, I do not no if this means anything but on my Qianlong blue and white platter that is thicker than this bowl I can see light through the porcelain when I shine a bright light through it but on this bowl I can not see light even in the thiner areas, here are more pictures, these photo's are more true to the blue color,

[Stan]

A direct photo of mark and the whole front of the bowl.

[Stan]

You can see two dragons chasing a flaming pearl, and thank you for the description "over the wall dragons" in this case two over the wall dragons.

[Stan]

Hi Peter, after trying to match this particular blue color, it reminded me of a vase I posted awhile back, the topic " Large blue and white baluster vase with Kangxi mark" I remembered how difficult it was to get this blue color to turn out in my photo's, so I compared the bowl to this vase a got a perfect match, the blue and the white ground are Identical, could this bowl be mid Qing dynasty?

[Stan]

That would be page 12 posted august 29 2014 topic Large blue and white baluster vase with Kangxi mark.

[peterp]

Stan, just stay realistic.
There is not point in trying to settle authenticity of this without consulting a third party opinion with hands-on inspection. I just give you here my view.

If there were no mark, I would think it could be late Qing (note: mid-Qing for us is Yongzheng to Jiaqing, so it would have to be later). Unfortunately, for me the presence of this underglaze mark negates the likelihood of this in my eyes.
None of the actual item marks I have seen on authentic items, and none of the Chinese mark books I have access to, have a Qianlong mark that looks that way, no matter whether made in the official kiln or a private kiln.
According to my experience the neat characters used in this mark could only be found in imperial items. This could not be a private kiln mark if made in the Qianlong reign. All underglaze blue marks of this quality would have to be either imperial or modern.

Further, the thick rim is highly unlikely with an imperial item, even if it is a large bowl like this.
You see that the presence of this type of mark, for me, makes it highly unlikely that it was made by a private kiln, in the Qing dynasty; I also feel that the thick foot rim means that the item would not have been made in the official kiln, so it can not be an imperial item. For me there remains only one conclusion.

My suggestions is to ask a third party for a hands-on inspection. That is the only way to go.

[Stan]

Thanks Peter, I rely on your opinion, it must be then 20th century, I thought maybe the correct blue color might add a second look, but your right the mark and the bottom inside foot says otherwise, I never thought it was Qianlong period  but possibly later Qing, thanks for all you correspondence  and expert advice.