Chinese blue and white vase

[Stan]

Hi Peter, I purchased this at an online auction, and the pictures were very small and not that detailed, they said it was ming to early Qing, but now that I have it, it looks fairly new to me, for one there is no dirt, the rust spots look like they were added and there are not rust spots in the blue or blisters that I normally see in old blue and white, also I would like to point out that the white ground is very white, I can't tell if there is a blue tint and the decoration is continuous all around, very buisy I would like to get a second opinion before I send it back, please let me know what you think, thanks.

[Stan]

Here are more photo's to view.

[carlyoung]

A base and foot photo always tells some part of a tale.

Any chance?

[Stan]

Here is the last set of photo's, thanks again.

[Stan]

Hi Carlyyoung, sorry about that I was still posting, I do it in sets of 3 so I can get larger photo's.

[Stan]

One more thing that I think is crucial is under a loop the bubbles are very small, if I'm not mistaken Ming to early Qing would have large to small bubbles in the glaze.

[carlyoung]

Ah! sorry Stan , I do the same , regarding those brown spots , they are interesting as I have seen these on modern and 19th century pieces before. But your jar looks good to me for a bit of age , Interesting to what Peter says.

I hear this about the bubbles , but this really cannot be guaranteed as that would have something to do with the firing conditions in the Kiln and there were many kilns which would make differences highly likely.

[Stan]

Hi Carlyound, if this turns out to be 19th century I will keep it, I have always been fond of the blue and white, this piece does seem to have normal rust spots and small dimples in the glaze, but the lack of dirt concerns me, I know it could have been washed, I used to wash all the old chinese porcelain that i had until I was told not to, but old caked on dirt does not come off very easy, especially on the very old porcelain.

[heavenguy]

You are not suppose to take off dirt of porcelain??? Why is that??? I always do that to everything I buy.

[peterp]

Hi Stan,
The odd painting style of roofs, trees, rocks, etc. are a minor problem. The shape would have to be Ming, but the bottom looks as if it was 20th century. The painting has some points that could make it Japanese, the only I can say is that it does not look traditional Chinese in some aspects, especially the bottom, which hardly could be Ming.
Do you have a separation line or seam, where at least two parts were fit together? Did you check the brown spots? Do they look flat, without depth, is the color uniformly brown or has it more the appearance of rust when enlarged?
This type of shape is unlikely to appear in the Qing dynasty, but the bottom is unlikely in the Ming dynasty, there should be a seam either way, but it is also faked; especially likely when the seam is not visible at all on the outside shape.

[Stan]

Hi Peter, the only seam is at the top close to the shoulder, it is hard to see but on one side it is apparent, the brown spots have depth and feel like it is under the glaze and bled through the glaze, even the Japanese porcelain which i did not consider has large air bubbles especially in the older porcelain, I have never seen a bottom like this on Japanese though but that doesn't mean they did not do it this way, I just do not know however I have seen bottoms like this on Chinese, like you said 20th century I was not sure if they did it in the Ming or early Qing dynasties or this type of decoration on transitional pieces, it looks like snow on the landscape, my gut feeling on this piece is a modern high class fake, unless it is Japanese that would explain the cobalt blue color and the way some of the people look and the building and snowy landscape, if it is Japanese it would be worth keeping, I compared the cobalt blue to some of my Fukagawa and it is the same color, thats interesting.

[peterp]

Stan, I have seen Japanese copies of Chinese porcelain that resembled them to a very high degree. I still do see them on the Japanese internet, but never such a bottom, as you said. That is the main reason that I do not really think it is Japanese. For me that leaves the other option...you know which one.
Regarding the brown spots, an indent means nothing. If you look at the enlargements in the ebook you see that one of the spots look much like something imbedded in ice, in winter, when you can see part of the embedded item below the surfac; the or one of the spots shown has a three-dimensional look, like a mushroom. That is because they have grown naturally.
There is a possibility that the spots were artificially added, even if they are recessed. One way I know is painting them on. The may cause an indent, depending on the material used. High iron content can do that, as far as I know. It is likely to be used below the vitreous glaze. With underglaze blue the blue decoration is painted directly on the dried clay base and then the item is glazed and fired. That is valid for Chinese porcelain. Japanese porcelain and Canton wares are different from the Chinese process.

BTW, your point regarding the bubbles is crucial, something we cannot see in the pictures.

[peterp]

To heavenguy:
>You are not supposed to take off dirt of porcelain??? Why is that???

I have mixed feelings (and experiences) with this. The problem is that dirt often is not natural. Things were made to look dirty. An exception is when things were excavated.
Something that can be washed off with a mild detergent or soap water (or only water) is always removed by me. I have had cases where I used cleaning methods used by professional restorers, and after that the people seeing the item thought it was new.
Most people do not use these, however. So anything that can be removed by gentle cleaning should be fine, in my view. But ... do not bleaching agents unless you know what you do. You might damage the glaze. Do not use solvents like acetone or (yes!) alcohol etc., and always soak and flush with plenty of clean water afterwards. Never use hot or very cold water, the porcelain might develop cracks or hairlines. What I often do is just use wet baby tissues to wipe the surface, or just soak the items for a couple of hours.

[Stan]

Hi Peter, I had two sets of Chinese antique Porcelain lanterns, both pair are in excellent condition the first set I cleaned, the second set I purchased awhile afterwards, I was told by a friend, yes the same friend that told me  a piece I have was Kangxi and turned out not to be Kangxi, when he looked at the lanterns I said, I need to clean the other set and he said not to, and that the dirt that had accumulated over a long period of time shows it is not new, I took both pair to the antique show and I was amazed at how many people was more interested in  the dirty lanterns than the one that I had cleaned, this was not just dirt that someone tried to make look old, this was the kind of dirt that accumulates on something that has been setting on a shelf for ages un- touched, I have bought several things like that in the past and cleaned them up, but he was right, I sold the dirty pair and the pair I cleaned are larger and in my opinion nicer than the dirty pair that sold, and so I can see some truth and logic to not cleaning, but then again, same situation except this was a Fukagawa vase that I bought, I could tell that it was 19th century but I was concerned with the finish, It was dull and the colors were not as bright as other pieces that I have of the same type so I washed it with soap and water and there was so much grease and dirt on it that it looked dull but after I removed the dirt it looked amazing, all the colors popped and it was just a nice as the others I have so in that case it was better to clean, I guess it is knowing when  and when not to clean.

[heavenguy]

PeterP and Stan,

Thank you for your valuable info and sorry if I made you guys take away attention from the original post.

I been making a big mistake then since I been cleaning the foot rims with Clorox Wipes for months now. I usually use mild soap to clean the glaze part of the item, but usually when there is something hard to come off I use Clorox wipes or even glue remover.  I sometimes even use Windex. one example it's the B/W bowl I show you guys just a a few days ago, It had a hard white paste and I removed with glue remover and clorox big mistake then. But thanks to guys input I will never clean something like that anymore.