Qialong Export porcelain ??

[Rec]

Hi guys
What is your expert opinion on this scalloped edged plate? Could it be from chialong period?
Please note I made these pics in the evening hours. If the pics are not sufficient I will take a few tomoorrow morning

[Stan]

My opinion is that it is English not Chinese.

[peterp]

Not sure if it is English, Stan, but the meaning of the first word is "The Dutch..." in a latin language. Cannot read the rest. However, the bottom is not clearly visible.
To rec:  If it was Qianlong, the bottom would be unglazed and the glaze serrated along the edge.
The overall condition looks really too good; it looks new.

[konniela]

Sambre is a river in France and Belgium. 

[Rec]

I found it in Dutch military institute.  It's a Dutch fregat  sailed between 1821-1868
www.maritiemdigitaal.nl/index.cfm?event=search.getdetail&id=120009827
The bottom is unglazed but I'm not sure of the glaze serrated along the edge. I have no idea how a serrated glaze looks like ????
Maybe this pics helps

[peterp]

Still not likely Chinese, at least not traditional. Please be careful, as it looks pristine it is likely a fake if it is of Chinese origin. Export porcelain is mostly recognizable due to its age, but this has no such age signs.

[Rec]

Thank you all. I agree, i't looks to pristine and it can't be qialong or we know this ship sailed between 1821-1868.
Still I like it very much, the quality of painting is very good also the colour combination is beautifull

[Stan]

This can't be from the West either and be antique, the back side shows that it is a higher quality of porcelain not found on antique ceramics from the Western regions, also I would like to point out the decoration is not a decoration seen on Chinese Antique Export Porcelain, I think it is vintage at the most.

[Rec]

Hi Stan,
thank you very much for your contribution, I really appreciate it

you can find a lot of Chinese export porcelain that is specifically produced for western market. For instance, Christie's sold in 2001 a porcelain plate that had about the pretty same central decoration; see below the link
www.christies.com/lotfinder/Lot/a-rare-dated-famille-rose-ship-plate-3713490-details.aspx

Further
A workshop note records that the first specimen of hard, white and vitrified European porcelain was produced in 1708. The Meissen factory was established in 1710 after the development of a kiln and a glaze suitable for use with B?ttger's porcelain.  And in 1712, many of the elaborate Chinese porcelain manufacturing secrets were revealed throughout Europe by the French Jesuit father Francois Xavier d'Entrecolles.  The secrets, which d'Entrecolles read about and witnessed in China, were from then now known and began seeing use in Europe. (souce: wikipedia  porcelain)

But maybe you are right, maybe this is not antique, but just a vintage plate. yet I do not mind because, thank god, i didn't pay much :)

[Stan]

Hi Rec, thanks for showing what  your platter is imitating, I am glad you found it at Christies, look at the star bursts on your platter " the band on the inside outer edge " this is not Chinese, then look at the decoration on the platter at Christies, this is a typical Qianlong export decoration, the Western regions have always been copying the Chinese this is where the term Chinoiserie comes from.

[Pablo82]

The language of the first word "L'olandese" (the Dutch) is italian.

[Rec]

I would like to change the subject name because this plate couldn't be produced during Qianlong era; this ship was built in 1821.

Hey Pablo
I thought first about french because during 1794 -1815 was most of Northern Europe controlled by Republican or Napoleonic France. I read that the French language the official language was from 1810 to 1813, in addition to Dutch. and Until 1892 there was a French-language newspaper called Le Courrier de la Meuse for Maastrichters with French as their mother tongue. In education, French as a second language was considered more important than English until well into the 20th century.
but you are right, the first word is written in Italian.

to all,
I really like this board because I have learned a lot more about Dutch history in a day. I am now searching whether there is a link between Italian and Dutch to understand why Italians are written on a board with a Dutch ship.

I also find out (see below links) that most of the export porcelain are produced on request; in shapes and with decorations designed in Europe often in a "Chinese" style - called Chinoiserie..

" ....and by the end of the 18th century and the beginning of the 19th century porcelain is becoming less expensive to make in Europe than in China and Export to Europe decreases. Foot rims are generally coarse and unglazed, although a more delicate foot ring occurs on fine pieces . On the whole not much porcelain appears to have been made at all during the third quarter of the 19th century" (source Gotheborg)

www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2018/the-collection-of-james-f-scott-n09976/lot.137.html?locale=en
www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2015/nutt-americana-n09305/lot.168.html
www.sothebys.com/content/dam/stb/lots/N09/N09024/708N09024_6YT6W.jpg
www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2015/nutt-americana-n09305/lot.171.html
www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2012/property-from-the-estate-of-brooke-astor-n08890/lot.451.html

I will notify you if I have new information, please do so too
and sorry for this long post and the links. please delete the links if I'm in violation with forum rules

[Stan]

Thanks Rec. I love looking at the old Chinese export especially the Armorial.

[peterp]

When it comes to armorial porcelain, ships, etc., or items with a completely western style decoration, you should always be very careful if something looks too perfect. Many years ago, when the Chinese discovered that these fetch a better price than other export porcelain, they started imitating them in numbers, and real items became more difficult to find since then, unless they are abraded much.
This is not only the case with ceramics but also with other antiques, but anything that originally had a relatively high price originally is being targeted, unfortunately. Always look for usage and age signs -- there should be hardly any genuine items with armorial decorations, ships, or anything concerning the VOC in a pristine condition nowadays.

[Rec]

Thank you Peter,
I bought this plate from a local  realestate auction for charity so it doesn't bother if it's a fake one, but you are totaly right and I appreciate very much your help and would never buy armorial piece if it's too good and the price is not right.

I would like to share the last information I have.
I found a newspaper article from 10 July 1829. In this newspaoer they reported  that the Dutch warship La Sambre frigate by 48 cannons with 33i man was arrived in Livorno harbor ( grandducati di toscana), coming from Genoa.
Greetings, rec