Rose Medallion Plate with Mythical Beast

[bokaba]

I believe this is a rose medallion pattern plate featuring a mythical beast of some type. Is this a late 19th Century piece or a modern reproduction? The gilded coin designs in the rim strike me as odd.

Thank you

Bokaba

[peterp]

The coin design appears in many types of decorations. Sometimes even in marks, with auspicious characters. Can you provide an image showing the foot rim (partial) at an angle of about 45 degrees? The foot rim is really important with Qing dynasty plate dating.

[bokaba]

Hi peter, hope this helps

[bokaba]

Close up

[peterp]

I would think mid 19th century to Guangxu reign, judging by the foot rim and mineral pigments used in the decoration.
BTW, as far as I understand a rose medallion has as a relatively small gilt enclosed roundel in the center, which has roses inside. Just roses in the decoration does not make it a 'rose medallion' item.

[bokaba]

Thanks again for all your help Peter. I am glad to have added this piece to my collection.

Bokaba

[bokaba]

Hi Peter,

Do you think it is possible my plate is a fake? I found a number of similar plates made in Hong Kong/Macao in probably the third quarter of the 20th Century.

[link to Ebay removed by admin - please read rules about external links above]

Bokaba

[peterp]

This possibility of a copy exists always, if the shape is the same and someone goes to the extent of using the same materials as in the past. The use of similar pigments as those of the past can make it tough. Sometimes it is difficult to tell without a hands-on inspection. That means the glaze and paste would have to be checked with magnifier for bubbles and consistency, and a check for usage or age signs should be done.
The simplest would be to wait until a similar item turns up in a more reliable source like a book, etc.

[rubikscubenerd]

This plate is probably from the 1960s-70s. No way is it older than that.

[peterp]

Never say no way...  :-)  Even with all our knowledge combined, we could not possibly know it all.
Anyway, it is famille rose and thus is most likely 19th century or later. It could have been made for over a hundred years after all.
Following my own advice to not use links to commercial sites for verification, I post here the Chinese characters for an image search of this type of plate. Search yourself "?????????" (leave the fist two characters away if you do not want 'Qing dynasty' included in the search.

All Chinese sources I visited said it is Qing dynasty Canton enamel. But again, it possibly was made for a long time due to its auspicious motif, thus it could be this is still being made, who knows.
Some of the dishes I viewed had a foot rim that clearly could not be from the mid-20th century. or even the second quarter, but Qing dynasty indeed being more likely. With others this was not that clear. That only means that the motif existed for quite some time, but that does not necessarily mean that each of those items are from the same period.

[bokaba]

Hi Peter,

Someone on another forum raised the possibility that these types of wares are indeed Qing plates, but have been re-glazed and re-decorated, largely in Hong Kong and Macau in the 1950s or later. Have you ever heard of anything like that?

Thank you,

Bokaba

[peterp]

Retouched might be possible, but you cannot have over-painting of an existing decoration, or complete repainting without resulting in visible traces. At least the resulting enamel should be considerably thicker in case of the latter.
I don't think there is a point in theoretical exercises like this. A close examination of the porcelain body should clarify whether the body is from that period or from the late Qing dynasty. The pictures show perfect 19th century enamels.