Fake bottom?

[2fat2slow]

Hello everyone,

fake bottom?

[peterp]

Let me say it this way - Chances that the red dirt was artificially smeared on are greater than it being there naturally from being buried in the soil. However, it cannot be completely excluded with items excavated. The part of the bottom visible in between is uneven and looks odd, in a way that ceramics don't, except if some accident happened during firing in the kiln. You will have to show the whole item to make sure it could not be from excavation.

FYI, the reason fakers like to smear on soil is that items look as if they were genuine excavation items. In some cases the soil is baked on in an oven so that it cannot be washed off. This is done to imitate the naturally adhering soil on ancient items, which can penetrate into the glaze pores and cannot be removed.
Although the bottom is the most decisive, it is always advisable to look at the overall condition of an item.

[2fat2slow]

Thank you for you replay.

Few more pictures attached.

P.S. apologies for links instead of pictures here..

drive.google.com/file/d/0B5S1Y5HvJ3fnTlFaX050bkhOSGM/view?usp=sharing
drive.google.com/file/d/0B5S1Y5HvJ3fnTHB3eFVuZnRiZ2s/view?usp=sharing
drive.google.com/file/d/0B5S1Y5HvJ3fnWDZ1cGJZSzdVY2c/view?usp=sharing
drive.google.com/file/d/0B5S1Y5HvJ3fnQXpyUkhveS1WdEE/view?usp=sharing

[peterp]

This vase is showing some Yuan dynasty decorations, but it is a fake, I' m afraid. Large underglaze blue items known in the Yuan dynasty are few in number. Most what is on the market is fake.

[2fat2slow]

I know what you mean - you want to refer to - The David vases.

I am sure that it is not one of them :) i was considering option that someone at some point made replica, i do not have mass reproduction on my mind.

Let's day vase was keep outside at some point for some time..is it possible to damage bottom in this scale as it is..?

I understand that always easiest way to refer to modern replica - for me when researching - referring to modern replicas last thing, when all small bits and answers sorted:)

[peterp]

There are a few things to mention. The proportion of the vases is not normal. It is too wide on top. Then the blue pigments used are not the same on top and on lower part. While it is possible to have two pigments, as far as I know they are not separated in upper and lower part, their usage is different. To me the elephant heads look odd too. They almost never have eyes and tusks.

There is still a controversy, because even researches do not agree on the authenticity of many of the larger Yuan items, many doubt that there are any large items existing in private ownership. Most large items were exported to the Middle East, originally, where they now are in museums. Only small items are known to exist in numbers.

As to the bottom, basically it looks as some faking was going on. No bottom looks that way unless they were treated. Does the dirt cover the glaze, or are there only drops on the dirt? Basically, as far as I am concerned, all Yuan items have what the Chinese call a "sand bottom", unglazed. But these do not look this way. There is only one item type known to usually have a glazed bottom.

I have handled smaller Yuan B/W items, but never large ones, so I'm afraid I cannot help more.

[2fat2slow]

peterp,

thank you for your responds!

i do agree with you in most what you think about it..

usually i always start to check such things - seeking fake items on line..

for sure - i do not think that possibly could be from 13th-14th century, there is no doubts about that.

but for some reason i got stuck with idea - that someone possibly later on - 17th or 18th or 19th century made a copy of vase - maybe it is not something with tag "mass produce"..? this confirm answer more than good for me - i am not that one - which chasing a dream to find something very valuable somewhere (but you never know).

and yes, i do see a lot different types of items, including cheap copies and better ones, real deal items.. - if be honest never had a chance to get my hands on not bad copy if it is one..

i found some similar stuff in china online market - but, there is far away in all aspects if comparing to my vase..

if it is a fake - i would go for grade A then - i do not have in my mind serious copies which been made to fool experts and profit a lot of money out of such fake item..i do have in mind - grade A for simple chinese art lovers..

i am at the moment 50/50 - and i am afraid that this vase will end up in a corner at my house:)

i will post measures a bit later for your consideration.

thank you one more time!

[peterp]

>>> always start to check such things - seeking fake items on line..

I do not recommend this. You should be looking for genuine ones to compare. For that you need to visit the websites of well-known museum collections of Chinese ceramics or research institutions. Today, as fakes are the large majority (more than 90%) you will not get the right picture by looking at fakes.

Try some of these: http://www.chinese-antique-porcelain.com/porcelain-collections.html

Fakes of the type of this one can easily be found where I live. Just go to one of the jade markets, they have hundreds or even thousands of fakes, many better than this. Some of the new items have the same quality as imperial items. But they are still not antiques...