Celadon Cong Vase

peterp · Aug 21, 2015, 09:32:19

So paper it was... An attached bottom is just one way of faking. You have to take that into consideration when evaluating authenticity. The interior seems indeed to have a greenish hue, not the whitish/grayish look the other pictures show.
One thing is sure, it is hand made. Apart from the traces in the interior which indicate this, the fact that the interior bottom is not perfectly square/rectangular is also a sign of this. In the old times it was difficult to get this perfect.
Just keep looking for a similar item, and do not forget to let us know if you find one. I would really like to get confirmation regarding its age, because the glaze edge is important for dating.

peterp · Aug 21, 2015, 09:48:05

To connoisseurbear,

>>when we rub these two parts, the sense of touch is different

Like what? Like plastic? Do you think it could have been an artificial glaze covering the item in that part?
I happen to restore porcelain and restorers use what is called a "cold glaze", to cover repaired/restored areas. This is a synthetic material which has a different feel and, before all, does not feel cool to the touch as a vitrified glaze does. You cannot re-fire items repaired with modern techniques, because the heat would destroy the special glues and materials used.
Some fakers in China use Japanese high quality cutting tools to cut the bottom from porcelain shards. The normal way would then be to use traditional glaze to attach the bottom to the new body, a technique that has been used since hundreds of years ago in porcelain production. After that the area of the connection would be over-glazed and the item re-fired. To the touch the result should be the same hard, cool, glassy feel on both sides, because the fired glaze(s) would have a vitreous layer covering them. But as I said, if it is an artificial glaze it may feel different.

connoisseurbear · Aug 21, 2015, 09:58:03

Yes like plastic, that kind of texture, I do not know the technique of restoration, but I was once visit a restorer in Hong Kong, he helped many dealers/ major auction houses for restoration. The technique is called "spray plastic" ??, he did it to repair cracks or chips. And for this technique, if we use a flash light and put it behind the restored part, the restored part is not as transparent as the original part, and if used a eyepiece to examine that part, can see a clear difference between the original one and the restored one, such as there is no bubble in the restored part.

kardinalisimo · Aug 21, 2015, 09:59:56

You are right about the imperfections in the shape. The exterior edges are not perfectly staight either. I find it a bit strange for the side panels to be with uneven surface. They are just rectangulars, with no decoration. Should not be that hard to make them flat. Or maybe they were made this way on purpose.
Peter, I have no experts in my area. Don't know if I write to an auction house they will be able to tell by pictures about the age.
I searched in English and Chinese but did not find the same vase. Moat of the celadon cong vases have relief decoration, the one with no such have handles or crackles or something.

peterp · Aug 21, 2015, 12:31:06

Round items could be thrown on the wheel, but with rectangular ones the side panels are made individually and then fit together, making the production more labour intensive. I am told that is one reason that such items are less plenty, and angles are not right.

I encourage you to try with an auction house, but sometimes they cannot tell for sure either. I wonder how many auction specialists really have more than a superficial knowledge in view to production related issues.
I have seen one of the top tier international auction houses auctioning items which would be fakes (to us), but their specialists cannot know everything...nobody can.
Just keep on waiting until another one comes around.

kardinalisimo · Aug 21, 2015, 20:00:43

Peter, maybe I should try different keywords to search in Chinese. I don't know if cong is the right term?

[admin - Sorry, but had to remove the link to the video to avoid potential trouble.]

peterp · Aug 22, 2015, 07:31:51

"Cong" is the right pinyin. I checked for similar items in Chinese but found none. Sometimes it takes time until something comes up. Just be patient, please.

kardinalisimo · Aug 24, 2015, 20:27:58

There is something I did not pay attention before. The neck. On my vase it has a straight wall at the base. I don't think I can find a cong vase with such neck.

kardinalisimo · Aug 26, 2015, 08:45:24

Auction house C. and auction house B. think that it is modern. Maybe I am wrong but if they see a piece with no mark, no decoration and no obvious age signs that what they usually reply.
I mentioned to C. about the saw-like glaze edge but no comment.
Waiting on auction house S. but I expect the same answer.
Peter, you used to post on Asianart forum before, right. Seems like the boards there are pretty unactive recently.

peterp · Aug 26, 2015, 10:04:49

There is a good reason why auction houses like to rely on provenance. With the ever increasing quality of fakes it is getting more difficult even for their specialists. They cannot know all and may sometimes not recognize items they have never seen.
That is where the difference is. When you evaluate based mainly on decoration, then that is it. If you can evaluate based on shape, glaze, colors, or manufacturing related factors, you have more points to rely on.

It is not only asianarts that has slowed down.

kardinalisimo · Aug 26, 2015, 10:44:15

I know it is hard to tell by images but you are doing pretty good job even with low resolution pictures.
I wonder how many people at the big auction houses can do evaluation based on more then 2-3 points. Who knows how many of the sold "period" pieces are from the actual periods.

kardinalisimo · Aug 26, 2015, 21:45:30

Got a reply from the London office of S. They think it is Qing but no exact period suggested. They'd like to handle it as they cannot tell the exact color of the glaze by the photos. The problem is that I can't fly all the way to UK. I expect them to write back with more details and I will keep you posted.
Peter, any clue how to tell celadon from qingbai?

peterp · Aug 27, 2015, 08:00:00

In my experience the term Qingbai is hardly used in Ming and Qing ceramics. During the Song and Yuan dynasties that was a glaze that looked white or whitish overall, but in the recesses where more glaze would accumulate, the thicker glaze had a greenish or bluish tint. Actually, Qing is the term use for celadon, in Chinese, and Bai means white.

kardinalisimo · Aug 27, 2015, 08:49:31

Thanks. On Koh they explain the difference but it is not easy to quite understand it.
In second email S. thinks that the vase is late Qing. Of course no explaination why. I guess most people would expect something with richer decoration from Qianlong piece.