Chinese famille rose octagonal charger

[tipton444]

Hello all!

Here's another recent pickup from picking around my area, and I'm wondering if you guys can help as I've never seen this mark on the bottom.  The design and enamels look just a little funny to me, but still very well done.  The scene is Chinese, but was it made in China?  Is it a newer piece or old?  Republic?  It's nice and large, measuring 13-5/8" inches.  Thanks for all the help!

[tipton444]

few more pics

Also, I found two more that have the same mark, but they just say antique canton porcelain.

www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-LARGE-ANTIQUE-CHINESE-EXPORT-CANTON-FAMILLE-ROSE-PORCELAIN-PLATE-OCTOGON/233450799229?hash=item365ac0807d:g:njcAAOSw2QteCnMj:sc:USPSPriority!01020!US!-1

[peterp]

You are right with your doubts about this. I believe it is Japanese. The colors look very much like something one could expect with Yongzheng wares, but ....
Octagonal plates do exist in BW export porcelain, and occasional on Canton wares, but are more common on Japanese wares. Canton enamels are of a different type. Then, the black hair is something that would likely be from the 20th century, if Chinese.  I know that there were made a number of plates in Japan with almost perfect Chinese motifs, in the 1930s or 40s. Not sure if this belongs to them.
The mark also looks typical Japanese.
The bottom looks as if the plate was made in a mould, and appears to have an unglazed spot in the center, which is not common for Chinese wares.

[Stan]

I agree with Peter, Japanese, I could not find the mark in my book on Japanese marks but similar marks I believe date to the 1st quarter of the 20th century.

[tipton444]

Excellent information, I had a feeling it might be Japanese.  I figured the mark on the back center was some kind of spur mark, but a mould makes more sense (either way very Japanese).  The enamels do look different you are right Peter.  Can I ask you, did they not start using black enamels in the hair until the 20th century?  Is must be just black enamel right?  Because painted black ink was used a lot. 

Thank you guys for the help!

[peterp]

The early hair was not pitch black. But I would not say that black was not used at all. I remember it being used on some smaller part of insects, etc. , but those may be Canton enamels, a completely different kind of color pigment.

[Stan]

Hi Peter, "The early hair was not pitch black", How early?  I have a couple of late 17th century Japanese vases that have black hair, looks like black enamel to me and I have seen examples with black hair.  One vase I bought from a collector and he said that the Bonham's appraiser said it was late 17th century, the other one I bought from a woman that told me she had the vase in a museum and they told her it was late 17th century.
Here are a couple of photo's of the hair.

[peterp]

Sorry for not making it clear that I meant the hair on Chinese porcelain. Pigment/color usage on Japanese porcelain is a wholly different matter.

[Stan]

Thanks Peter, I new it had to be me that was not understanding the question correctly, thanks for clarifying.