Mid/Late Qing Minyao Bottle in Underglaze Iron/Copper Red

[TKNZ]

Hi all,

This smaller bottle (9.5cm high) was sold to me as Qing, but I haven't been able to find any examples of similar decoration and style from that period (or really any other period for that matter).
It's entirely in an iron/copper red underglaze decoration, with a motif of grapes running around the outside. In places the red decoration has fired as a deep green. Due to the rather sloppy decoration quality and utilitarian nature of it I would assume it is minyao. The glaze is rather thick and highly glasslike.
Interested if anyone has opinions on age/style.

Thanks,
Thomas.

[peterp]

Personally I suspect this to be a fake for the following reasons.
The problems shown with the underglaze red decoration may have existed in the Yuan dynasty, but should not exist anymore even if it was a Qing dynasty minyao item. Actually, such problems were mostly resolved in the early Ming dynasty.

The main problem is with the decoration, however. It shows two decorations that are from different periods.
The banana leaf decoration on the neck shows a single stroke rib. This existed only in the Yuan dynasty. From the Ming dynasty onward the ribs were always painted with two lines, leaving the center white. On the other hand, the ??? decoration band along the base shows the ? all interconnected. That is typical for the Qing dynasty.
The overly crude body/base and the underglaze red problems make me suspect they are intentional as it often is with fakes that want to give the impression of old age.
This might have been intended to look as Yuan but the fakers did not use the right decoration with the bottom decoration band.

Addition: I would like to note that the foot rim is not a Qing dynasty rim. It looks as if it has some age, but I would want to inspect the glaze with a magnifier to verify this.

[TKNZ]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your very informative post - I had it in my head that it was minyao and so never even considered the potential of it being a fake piece. Perhaps it is a (relatively) old fake of a much earlier piece; I could see it being made crudely specifically to deceive, but some features of it seem older and perhaps some of the wear has been 'legitimately' gathered over time. I guess there is also a very slim chance it was a bad batch of glaze or a bad fire that they decided to keep the products of.

I took a few closeup photos of the base if that helps, but I'll link them as an imgur post as compressing them to post them here would kind of defeat the purpose of trying to get a detailed photo.

It's a shame it's likely a fake, but I wonder how old of a fake it is...

Thanks,
Thomas.

Photos: https://imgur.com/a/brb6O4k