Odd Shaped Porcelain Plate w/ Character Marks

[tipton444]

Here is another piece from an estate collection.  It doesn't look too old to me, but can someone read the markings? 

[Rec]

hi tipton444
i found the following info in mine book
The back mark is a Chinese mark used on Japanese wares from the mid Edo period. ?????? (In Japanese would read: ki gyuoku hou tei no chin)
Maybe Stan and Peter can help you further

[tipton444]

Interesting.  Thank you!  Any idea why they would put Chinese marks on a Japanese ware?  Could it be as old as it says it is, early 18th century?

[Rec]

"when Japanese potter began making porcelains they copied kiln marks exactly as they copied the designs. But just as the Japanese potter imparted an elusive something to the Chinese design that distinguish them from the originals so in copying the Chinese characters making up to seal marks they gave them an unmistakable Japanese flavour, and this sometimes furnishes the first clue to a falsification which might otherwise have defied detection........."
source: Japanese and oriental ceramics

[Stan]

The Chinese Characters read " Precious as rare stone and beautiful jade " I have never seen this on Antique Japanese porcelain, this mark would not have been used, the Chenghua six Character mark was the most common, and the reasoning behind the use was to say this is as good as the Chenghua pottery, you can't always believe what you see on the internet, this piece is a modern piece, you did take some really good close photo's notice that there are no rust spots " blisters " in the blue color, with this mark it would be later in the 20th century in my opinion.

[peterp]

FYI, Chinese writing is frequently used in calligraphy in Japan and on certain ceramic items copying Chinese motifs. The Japanese sometimes do not know what they are writing, they just copy the characters.
Part of the color decoration and especially the rim decoration are typical  Japanese, and so is the shape. But it might well be more recent.

[Stan]

Just for the record, I have seen 18th century dishes in this shape sell at the high Auction houses at high prices, it seems like shapes like these are very rare, Im not sure what the shape is supposed to be but very rare.

[tipton444]

Very interesting, thank you all for your help, I'm happy to have learned a few things once again.  These plates came from a local estate auction and were grouped with a whole bunch of Imari plates so it makes sense (some were quite old and others not so much), there was also a tremendous amount of Chinese porcelain but I only got a little of it.  I was recently reading about rust spots in antique porcelain, and you referred to the blue color, are the dark rust spots usually found in the blue coloring?  Is the iron mixed in the cobalt or the clay?  Anyways, I attached a few more pictures I already took before.  Thank you guys again!

[Stan]

Hi Tipton, yes on old Japanese ware you will always see the rust spots in the blue, so it must have a certain percentage of iron in the cobalt or what ever they mix it with, that is a good question, on late 17th and early 18th you will see areas in the blue that have a black color where the glaze did not stick in the blue areas.

[tipton444]

Great, thanks for the info.  I'll have to find some good examples with rust to put in my memory bank.  Very neat