Bottle vase

[Stan]

Hi Perter and all, here is a vase added to my collection, I am not sure of age bran new, late Qing or earlier? my feeling is late Qing or New.

[Stan]

Here are more photo's.

[Stan]

2 more to view.

[Stan]

Here are 2 more photo's to view.

[Stan]

Here is the last Photo to view.

[JjGhandi]

Hey Stan,

Nice vase! I wouldn't go for early/mid Qing either.
Is the top rim worn gilt or brown decorated?
Are there any age signs?


Kr,

JJ

[Stan]

Hi JJ, the top rim is gold that has a little ware not much, and their are a couple small rust spots and some glaze retractions from the kiln firing, looking at the ground under a magnifier the bubbles are small to medium and the inside looks old not like the new ones you see, that is why I was thinking late Qing, During the Guangxu period, late Qing, Zhuanshu Qianlong  marks like this were used, note Peter mentioned that the marks were predominately blue so not sure about the red, could be later 2nd half of the 20th century.

[peterp]

Hi Stan, somehow I missed this post.
First I would like to correct you or myself...did I say Zhuanshu marks? It should be Kashu (Kaiti) and, predominantly - but not only - four character marks in the Guangxu reign. Further, it would have been mostly Kangxi marks, the Qianlong marks were more frequent in the early republic period.  No Zhuanshu style marks in either. Zhuanshu is a seal type character, Kaiti is a normal writing style.

I understand your considerations about this being 20th century. I'm afraid I have to agree. There are several reasons, the mark is one. This mark type (zhuanshu Qianlong, blue) is seldom found after the Jiaqing reign, for whatever reason. Personally I do not buy items with such marks because they are often likely later copies, I might though if there is not mark. :)
Actually, I have a ginger jar with a similar decoration, no green no mark, and it is probably Guangxu based on the shape and glazed neck.

[peterp]

This part is very revealing, in my view.
It looks as if this has been refurberished somewhat.
The dark clouds in the yellow color look as if color was added to overpaint missing or ungainly paint sections.
The same seems to be the case with the thin red lines and pink decoration straight above the green center of the flower.
Further, the rim color, brown or gilt, likely is all repainted.

The vase shows usage signs, but it is difficult to tell how old it is, really. A few decades in use could result in similar usage signs as an older vase that was rarely or not used. The foot rim resembles a Guangxu era rim.
The mark could be an exception, but we cannot know for sure. A republic period item could also have copied the mark, though less likely. And, How extensive is the repainting? Only the mouth area?

I'm afraid this is one of the cases when no definitive dating is possible. I have several such items too. They may never be clarified, except perhaps if by accident an exactly similar one appears. :) 

[Stan]

Thanks Peter for correcting me on the Zhuanshu mark, I must have taken one of your post out of context, thank you for clearing that up, The yellow ground is thicker in some areas making it kind of blotchy, all the yellow is like this perhaps it is not as old as I thought, thanks so much for your expertise.

[Stan]

The turquoise color on the bottom and inside has this crackle throughout the turquoise color found on new reproductions the real period pieces do not have crackle like this.

[peterp]

Crackles are a difficult subject. Some are age signs, some are not. Basically surface crackles are the result of different expansion/shrinking rates in the kiln. Artificial ones can be made by opening the kiln early during the cooling process. In ancient kilns the kiln type (shape) and the saggars may also have affected the result. In modern times they will just open the doors of the electric or gas fired kilns, and one item after the other inside will develop crackles with an audible sound.
But the problem is that many items developed crackles even without that, fine crackles that are not visible to the eye without magnification, on pristine items just coming out of the kiln.  The crackles normally get visible only if dirt is entering them. With artificial crackles they may rub in something. It is therefore possible that among similar items of similar age some have visible crackles and others not. Thus, so-called age crackles may often just be dirt that entered the kiln-developed crackles over time. But they can also be crackles that developed later due to temperature fluctuation in the environment. For example if some item is taken inside from the cold, etc., but in such a case it usually would take time to get dirt or sediments inside making them visible.
Personally I would view fine crackles as those shown on the bottom of this vase as having developed in the kiln. I believe this could easily be cleaned so that they are not visible anymore.
We need to accumulate knowledge about natural and artificial crackles, how they develop and evaluate the possible reasons for them being visible; we have to be aware about the ways fakers and dealers selling fakes may use them to make items appear older than they really are. As such, crackles can only be one factor in authenticy evaluation. They alone never are sufficient proof of age.

[Stan]

Thanks Peter for your reasonable assessment of Crackle glaze, I have recently viewed several Chinese sites that sell Chinese porcelain and I am amazed at all the pieces that have Crackle esp. in the Turquoise glazes, it seems like everyone, so I am wondering how they do it ?, because you know it is done in the kiln but how are they doing it, I thinks it is a new technique.

[peterp]

I was once told certain colors are more easily developing crackles than others, and that was yellow. But I do not know why this is. In the meantime I have seen other colors showing that too. Assuming that we are here talking about fencai colors (enamels), modern equivalents might have compnents that facilitate crackling. Difficult to tell because modern colors are more plenty, but the one thing that is obvious is that the crackles are not visible unless dirty. This is valid for both new and old crackles. So for faking they would have to rub something in or bury the item or whatever. I assume that way it would also be possible to make the crackling appear only in specific areas.
If we compare this with dead bubbles present that might help identifying this, because dead bubbles are more likely to develop along glaze cracks. But with late Qing items that have not developed such bubbles yet it might not be applicable. I suggest to just disregard this as a reliable age sign for the time being unless multiple other age-related features are present. I look generally for about five different age signs, and crackling comes only to the forefront if multiple other are there. That with the bubbles, like other glaze structure related evaluations is something for more advanced levels. We cannot be sure that in the years to come fakers do not find a way to fake these too, but looking at many genuine as well as faked glazes in depth may help somewhat.