Need Help Identifying Mark Please

McInRantz · Mar 09, 2021, 01:17:16

Hi everyone. Nice to be a part of this site. This may sound a little bad, but I have a porcelain tea set of some sort that I really know nothing about. I "think" it's Japanese, but not 100% sure. Quite honestly, I just don't know. I did a lot of research on the marks on the backs and bottoms of the pieces, but keep coming up empty. I haven't even been able to find any other sets that look like this one. I don't know, it may be a "touristy" type of set, with next to no value, but my mother had it for quite some time and I believe her mother had it before that, so I simply don't know. Anyway, if I could identify the mark, maybe I could learn something more about this set. I've included two images, one of the mark on the back of a saucer and one of the front of a saucer. Thanks for any help.

Stan · Mar 11, 2021, 08:34:54

Hi McinRantz, Thanks for posting, I could not find the marks in my book of Japanese marks, but this is Japanese of the Kioto region, it is a Satsuma type commonly known as earthen ware and has a low ring when you click it with your finger, not like porcelain that has a high ring, this type has a small crackle in the almond colour glaze, I did see a similar mark on Gotheborg's site, he shows a couple pieces that he says might be Futaji, usually this type dates to the first quarter of the 20th century.

peterp · Mar 11, 2021, 10:31:33

Hi Stan, thanks for answering. Commenting on the mark, as so often with Japanese marks the writer succeeded in making the first character unreadable despite having only three strokes.
There are basically two possibilities, namely 丸二 or 九二 if standard characters are considered. 丸 means 'round' and 九 is the number nine (9), both may appear in names.
Please note that the third stroke of said character should be a downward stroke crossing the left stroke, while the handwriting shows an upward stroke on the right. (BTW, the reading Futaji would be hardly right for these.)
Maybe again some sort of abbreviated character, though, that nobody apart from the writer can read.

Stan · Mar 11, 2021, 14:46:00

Thanks Peter, that is good information, I have seen this mark before but I just can't place it.

McInRantz · Mar 12, 2021, 22:31:07

Hi Stan and Pete. Thanks to both of you for the great information. I took the information of the "proper" characters you presented and did a bit more research. I don't know if what I came up with is relevant, but I found something on Wikipedia that, at least, shows this mark or a close variation of it, about halfway down the page at this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ju_Ming . It seems the characters are used in Chinese names, too, something about a nickname is Jiu Er (九二). I don't know how related in meaning the characters between Japanese and Chinese languages, but it's a good place to start. I'll post if I find something new. Thanks for the info.

peterp · Mar 13, 2021, 07:27:54

We do not know if it is the character for 'nine'. Actually it is more likely the other because one stroke more unlikely than one missing, but for now we are not sure what character it is. Even a dot more can mean something different with Kanji (= Chinese characters). It is highly unlikely that a given name that was derived like that appears again, and Japanese and Chinese names are inherently different, but that is not the point, the character is not written correctly, so we cannot which one it is. We also do not know if it is an artisan's name or a shop name. Hand-written Japanese marks are notorious for being unreadable for such reasons like abbreviations and non-conventional stroke patterns, etc. In real life they often just resort to writing Kana when unsure about a Kanji characters strokes.

McInRantz · Mar 16, 2021, 23:07:21

Wow. I sort of knew that Asian writings were complicated (my father had a Chinese-American girlfriend and she was well versed in writing and reading Chinese, although I'm not sure of the "type"), but I didn't know it had so much ambiguity inherently "built-in" to it. I would have shown her these pieces if able, but she passed away many years ago.

For my own curiosity and knowledge, can anyone tell me what the other two marks, the "parallel" lines underneath the other character, represent? And does the mark mean something different with the two "parallel" lines to the right of the first character as opposed to underneath the character as is written on the saucer? I haven't been able to find out anything on the "totality" of the mark other than what I already reported in my previous post, but even that appears to be of no consequence based on Peter's explanation.

Thanks
Anthony

peterp · Mar 17, 2021, 07:34:56

二 means two (2). Both Chinese and Japanese do not read bottom to top (vertical), Japanese does not read right to left (horizontal) as a rule.

- Japanese marks would normally be written either left to right (horizontal) or (vertical) top down.

- Antique Chinese marks can be written (vertical) top down or right to left or (horizontal) right to left; everything else, as left to right would be a modern item.
(Modern Chinese writing is usually either left to right or top down, depending on where it is used, but not right to left, horizontal.)

McInRantz · Mar 26, 2021, 06:32:38

Is there any way to know who is depicted on the pieces of the tea set? Is he an emperor? A Samurai? Does he look like a well know Japanese leader of the past?

Is there a certain "style" that this tea set is made in? What I mean is in regard to the "central" figure of the image with four "others" focusing on this central person. Or, are all the persons depicted on the saucer the same person? They certainly all bear a resemblance to each other, but, then again, they all differ slightly. A couple persons seem to have mustaches while the other three don't. And two of the persons seem to have a "gold" halo of sorts surrounding their heads, while the other three don't. Does this have any significance?

McInRantz · Mar 26, 2021, 07:30:17

I found this saucer (and others) that seem to depict a Geisha in the center surrounded by four men surrounding her and looking adoringly at her. It is of the same style as the set I have, except for the Geisha in the center. And it has the "gold cross" above the head of the center person. It certainly seems like it is of a similar style to the set I have. Is there a formal name for this type of tea set that depicts n important center character surrounded by four others? Although, on my set, even though all five images are not exactly the same, they sure do have a resemblance to each other. Just trying to find out more to go on in order to help narrow down my searches. Thanks