Kangxi Shipwreck Vase with Leaf Mark (Doubts)

[smak]

Hi guys,

I have doubts on this piece, need your take on this! I know theres tons of fake shipwreck pieces, but what do you think?

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[peterp]

I'm afraid this is a fake. Here is my take.
First about it being shipwreck porcelain -- depending on the location of the shipwreck the porcelain is subjected to more or less sever bleaching. Sometimes almost none, but sometimes the vitreous glaze and/or even the underglaze blue decoration is almost invisible. Nothing of this is present here. The only that could point to it being in the water is the marine growth. But it is known that they use certain methods to add that "unnaturally", so to say.

Question 1: So, why is there marine growth and at the same time there is dirt as if it was buried or otherwise soiledd?
Question 2: Why is the blue color and glaze darker than that of Kangxi wares, they should be the same or lighter, because of bleaching.
Question 3: Any comparison with Kangxi export should show the difference. The painting is not Kangxi, neither the mountains, people, scenery or water (waves) show Kangxi specific features, nor are they from a later period in the Qing dynasty, in my view.

If you did not buy this, I would recommend not to. Too many problems...

[smak]

Thanks Peterp, I was thinking the same as well. It looks too good to be true, and I know theres a ton of these in fakes!

Check out this Hoi An hoard!

[peterp]

Basically, some Qing wreck items look as if they were just out of the kiln. They were protected from the elements for a long time. Some were buried in soil in the sea rather than sand. This all can make a difference.
Personally, I would not trust this item one without hands-on inspection. The protrusion looks a bit unlikely, but the item itself looks authentic. The crackling is unlikely, though, in my view, but who knows. There are too many variables. In a marine environment they (the crackles may be filled with white sediment. Please be careful, there are fakes of Vietnamese porcelain too, although small items are unlikely very expensive.
We should make a discussion on faking, perhaps...:)
Ever seen items with maritime growth glued on? Those that are fully covered are all suspect, sometimes the ceramics below were not even properly fired. They needn't to, because they were all covered by the stuck on stuff.
The marine growth differs according to the depth in the water, the position of the ship and location of storage in the ship. Some items are still found in their storage vessels (huge jars) when they are lifted. They were not affected by the sea.
I heard that in China they lower fakes in nets into the water for some time, to allow growth of molluscs, etc. And, I have seen myself an item here, in Taiwan, where the shells where exactly the same as those seen on the walls of the fishing harbor nearby. Shipwreck??? The owner of course believed it was genuine.
Not everything shipwreck is genuine. I would suggest to start by looking at the lifted items of reputable shipwreck archaeology or the auction houses thereof, to see how they look. Some are easily found online.

If the item you showed below is yours, you could try acetone to see if the big protrusion comes off. :)

[peterp]

Just wanted to add a bit. If there is bleaching, then the vitreous glaze layer on top of the decoration is affected first. In its lightest form the glaze may lose its shine, but the original colors of fired clay and underglaze color may still be intact. But when the glaze completely disappears the blue color starts leaching. Sometimes in places where it is more dense it will remain longer. This is quite easy to recognize in my view. Marine growth is a different matter. It depends on the location of the ship, the strength of the water flow and other. Marine growth may not be there in cooler, more northern areas like Korea, for example.

[Stan]

I can remember buying several Items at the Auction house when they first started selling the items from the hoi an hoard, everything had a sticker that said from the hoi an hoard, I could see the sticker falling off and loosing it or faking the stickers is possible, but the jar shown looks authentic from what I can see.

[peterp]

First to the stickers, as you know in the past there used to be stickers which had to be wet. These are more easy to come off. Perhaps it was this type.
Basically, faking is less likely with jarlets and the like may not be common. I agree with you, that this items looks authentic. That is why I find it puzzling that this should be a shipwreck item without specific signs, and that is why I suspect the "things" are glued on.

[Stan]

I agree, glued on, that's amazing the lengths people will go to make something that is old appear older.