Hi Peter, I won this at the local auction last night, there was 4 large Chinese platter all sold together, this is one of them, two of the platers are in my books on Canton blue, however this platter is in my book but it has a deferent decoration but the same blue is used, the blue color in these photos show a cobalt blue in some areas, that is not the true color, it is just the way the lighting is, it is very sunny out side and this color is really hard to capture, I take darker pictures because it is more true to the color, not a blue blue cobalt, but more purple, I believe that this is from the Qianlong period, but I am not sure, the ones in my book that has the same shape, size and color blue is from the Qianlong period. Please let me know if you think it is from that period, thanks, I will inclose 16 photos for viewing.
Here are more photos to view.
More photos to view.
Last set of photos, thank for your expert opinion.
Yes, Stan, this is Qianlong. The bottom confirms this.
However, not sure if it is Canton ware. To me this looks more like Jingdezhen quality.
Maybe you could upload a picture of the rim decoration of the others.
Hi Peter, thank you for letting me the period and that it is Jingdezhen, the other three pieces are completely deferent and I will post them on another post with detailed pictures of the rim, is that what you are asking or are you asking for more pictures of the rim on this platter, I will include pictures of the rim of this service platter incase that is what you meant, thank again Peter.
Peter the other three pieces, two are blue canton and the other is a large dish, that I am not sure if it is Chinese or Japanese, I will post them separately, thanks again.
It *could* be JDZ made... we can never be completely sure. The rim decoration is one of the crucial points of identification, but sometimes it is ambiguous, when it is not *typical*.
I suspect that if a foreign client would have taken a sample plate from JDZ to the canton factories, they would have painted them more or less the same.
The other factor I know of is the quality of the painted decoration.
A couple of things that I noticed about this platter from the canton platters is that this one is heavier than the Canton and it looks like they put marks in the porcelain before they painted for the painting of the decoration.
What kind of mark? Can see nothing in the pictures, but if it should look as if small holes were pricked into the base material, for the lines etc., then this would be right for Qianlong and JDZ.
That is what it looks like small holes pricked into the base material following the decoration, I will try to get a Picture of that, it is hard to get a picture of the small indented pricks along the decoration.
Peter is that a typical way of marking the the out lines for the painting for Qianlong and JDZ ?
Also I noticed in the decoration, the tree with ball like decoration, is done in the same style as Qianlong, where you see the blue dots inside the balls, I have only seen that painting style in the Qianlong period, is that correct ?
Hi Stan,Peter would they use these small holes/pricks on their reign marks?
I ask as I have a tea pot with said marks.
Yes, that is why I asked Peter if it was done in the decoration as well because in the past posts Peter has told me that they marked out the character with little prick marks before drawing it and you can see the prick marks but the prick marks are not visible all the time.
Looking at the photo you posted Calder the double circle would have been drawn on a potters wheel, there would have been no need to mark thoughs double lines, that looks a little suspicious to me.
The problem is that this type of Qianlong mark would only have existed in the "early" Qianlong reign, and would probably mean that the item would be imperial. The holes can be imitated too, so a mark with holes does not necessarily mean it is of the period.
Also, it looks like the dots on the double lines were printed and that is what is making up the lines, lots of dots, if the mark is printed then the whole decoration on the tea pot might me printed.
The collectors view point, I was pumping the appraiser for bohnams for information, he said what sells best here is pieces that have animals on the porcelain, he said that collectors prefer animals other than people, and that the porcelain with animals sells at a higher price, he might have a point because I have been looking for plates like this one for a long time and have never seen one until now, the only places that i see them is in books and I was told that this platter is extremely rare.
Yes, right Stan. There is really no need for holes when drawing a circle. Overall the mark image gives the impression as if there were very faint chatter marks below the glaze. But a hands-on inspection would be appropriate to make any verification.
As regarding the decoration, the Chinese generally prefer items with people, landscapes seem to be popular too. Animals are of interest if there are deer with other auspicious objects, but there seem to have been fewer of the latter.
That must be a western thing with the animals, at lest from Bonhams view point, his very words were who would want to look and people, they would rather look at animals.
Its mainly the auspicious meaning that attracts people when it comes to animals, here. Your plate is full of auspicious meanings. The deer, the crane, pine all have auspicious meanings, as does the buffalo with the boy. Contrarily, I have had a plate with two water buffaloes, but that seems to have been of little interest, probably because that meaning was lacking.
Thats interesting, auspicious meaning, thanks Peter.
Calder, are you going to show us the rest of the tea pot?
Yes Stan - Pics below.
Hi Calder, this looks like Banko ware to me.
It is a fantasy creation, nothing traditional.
Interesting. I did not know that pieces with animals are more desired.
Speaking of the meaning of the depicted scenes on the Chinese porcelain, I think every single piece has a meaning. Absolutely every one.
I started to make a data base with all the patterns, animals, people, objects, borders, plants, trees, flowers etc. I was surprised to find out that a very big part of the decorations are about the Chinese Imperial examination system. Then another huge part is related to auspicious meaning, longevity, good luck, happines etc. Every combination involving bats, fish, flowers, animals etc has a meaning.
I am using mostly Chinese sources and I find it very difficult to translate the meanings. It appears that there are a lot of homonyms in the Chinese language and that is how the name of the patterns are made.
Stories from the Three Kingdoms are also common on the older pieces. Scholars, immortals, legends ... I feel like I need a whole year to study everything.
Hope that will be helful one day
Hi Kardinalisimo, That is quite a task that you are you are taking on, to try to log all the patterns, animals, people, and ect, that could take a life time, Im sure you will learn leaps and bounds in doing so, I wish you the best of luck, it is projects like that, that eventually turn into books, sounds like it would be a good book to buy, when finished.
Hi Kardinalisimo, how many 18th century porcelain items have you seen with several animals portrayed on the porcelain, not very many, i see them in books or museums but they very rarely come up for sell, I did not see one at bonhams when I searched under Chinese export porcelain, maybe that is what the appraiser meant.
Hi Peter, I showed this platter to a Chinese women that appeared to be vary knowledgable, told her that is was Qialong period and she said that she thought it was much earlier, she said the blue color was from an earlier period.
Maybe she thinks it is a certain blue color that was only used for a short time in the Kangxi period, and then never again? Could be...
I have been evaluating Kangxi, but two or three things speak against it. There are no withered tree(s), at least not as far as I can see. The mountains are not very typical for Kangxi either.
To me the decoration has no features that are very clearly indicating Kangxi; but the body has a feature that is very important for determining if a bottom could be Qianlong. My personal view.
I agree with you Peter, but she sure seem set that it was earlier.
May I ask what you mean by withered trees?
It is never possible to be 100% sure, because later imitations are a possibility in many cases. I rather rely on the body signs...
Withered trees is what the Chinese use for trees without leaves. So, you have only branches like the trees in a colder climate in late autumn.
Learning is what it is all about, you stated that Kangxi trees are withered I was trying to understand your statement, my definition of withered might be different from yours.
Hi Peter, I see what you mean about the withered trees in the Kangxi period decoration.
Another definition is just "a tree with leafless branches" ...