Chinese Ceramics & Antiques Discussion

Hello everyone,

From the 5 bowls I bought, there were 2 shipwreck bowls included, this being 1 of them.
I don't know anything about them, it's not my main area of collecting.

I'll post the second one in a new thread, just to clarify on which bowl there's to be commented.

This bowl has incisions on the inside that seem to have mostly faded.
The glaze is very thin, probably from being under water for a long period of time.
It seems to have had some sort of repair to it (see bottom of the 3th picture). There's a crack leading out of it.

Does anyone have any idea where to put this bowl? Thanks in advance for your comments.

Kind regards,

JJ

More pics

More pics

Can you show the whole interior decoration? It may tell more. You could try a light shining through to see if the decoration is clear that way.
Also, a picture showing the foot rim shape from the side.

Did the seller say which shipwreck? Apart from the two molluscs on the bottom I cannot see any signs that this was in the sea for an extended period of time. May be in fresh water? In the more tropical seas there are usually certain signs, but in the north, like Korea, where the water is cold, there may be less marine growth.

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your reply.
There are more traces of being in the sea, however much less than in my other bowl.

I tried photographing the decoration but it's quite hard. Holding a light in it didn't really do the trick.
A few more pics, are they helpful?

Kind regards,

JJ

There isn't really a pattern in them it seems.
They just look like waves incised on the inside.
Prrhaps many have faded? Herewith pics of the foot rim.

I don't really have provenance.
These were from a person without relatives whose house  got cleared out by a firm .
They found them when clearing out the attic.

Atleast I'm happy they didn't throw them away, it may last for another 50 years in my collection!

Kind regards,

JJ

Hi Peter,

I uploaded the images in higher resolution here:
imgur.com/a/5DxURyj

It may be clearer to check :)

The foot rim is not Yuan, and without a full decoration it is difficult to check if it could be. Carved or scratched decorations in white glazes are often earlier than Ming, but not always.

Hi Peter,


Thanks for the info!
The other shipwreck bowl I posted looks quite similar to me.
Perhaps that one gives more information?


Kind regards,

JJ

Hi Peter,


I've been researching and I think I've found out the ship wreck they might be from: the Jepara wreck.

I found a very interesting and detailed article about it:
www.koh-antique.com/jepara/jepara%20wreck.htm

Here you can clearly see very similar items.
The last paragraph of the article states:

"The presence of small quantity of similar Fujian type suggested that they may continue to be produced  during the mid Southern Song period while new products were introduced. Such new products are characterised by bowls with plain outer wall and more sparse inner decoration, the main decorative motif are lotus or partitioned stylised floral motif.  This is in line with A.D 1150 - 1200 dating in Kamei Meitoku chronology of the Longquan/Longquan-type greenwares.  This dating is also consistent with Fujian experts' dating of Dehua wares found in the Wanpinglun (盖德碗坪崙） kiln."


Plain outer walls and sparse inner decoration would mean introduced from the mid Southern Song period onwards.
Since this ship sank between 1150 & 1175 (if the author is right) this would give a very good indication of its age and origin, Fujian province.

I also found a paper written about it:
www.researchgate.net/publication/324674528_SOME_NOTE_ON_THE_SALVAGING_JEPARA_SHIPWRECK

I quote:
"A. Ceramic
1. Bowl, Dish, and Saucer
Most of the bowl shapes excavated from the shipwreck could be described as basically large size,
with a slightly averted mouthrim. Many of this group have an unglazed stacking ring cut onto the interior
and some have bits of grit caught on the surface of the glaze."

This very much seems the case for my 2 bowls.

What do you think?


Kind regards,


JJ

The decoration could perhaps be Song, that is what I wanted to see, but there are also some coastal kilns that produced carved decorations.
But, the site you mention talks predominantly of celadon, while yours are white glazed. Not all kilns did fire white porcelain.Those are very typical and specific carved decorations, not just any. But other kilns or periods may have produced others.

Also, those celadon bowls do not show any marine growth on the base...growth or none, and the type, can be related to the position inside the ship, but also to the location of a wreck, meaning that different locations may result in different growth, or other traces. The foot rim of the bowl 2 looks more like Song, but not at all like any of those shown on Koh's site. That can be due to a different kiln, but also possibly means your item is from a different era. The interior decoration could hint at that, but otherwise the bowls do not have any specific traits that could help with dating. They are too common.

Hi Peter,


Thanks for more clarification.
Perhaps they're a bit later.

I've found this same bowl on e-bay being sold as Southern Song Fujian C13th:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Chinese-Southern-Song-Yuan-Dynasty-White-Bowl-13th-Century-Fujian-Kiln/283959310228?_trkparms=aid%3D1110012%26algo%3DSPLICE.SOIPOST%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225073%26meid%3D0f54cda0ebc04bbabe19f958bf6dec2c%26pid%3D100008%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D284070316765%26itm%3D283959310228%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DPromotedSellersOtherItemsV2WithMLRv3&_trksid=p2047675.c100008.m2219

This one has the same inner decoration: 1 incised line. Foot rim looks the same to me as bowl 2? Same thickness of glaze but seemingly a different color (maybe due to the lighting?).
Also, what is difference between the foot rim of bowl 1 & 2? I can't really see it.

Would this shape, foot rim, glaze etc be continued well into the Yuan dynasty?
As you said the foot rim isn't typical Yuan so I would assume Southern Song would be the right period?
As it isn't Northern Song either due to the fact that this type of decoration was introduced during early/mid Southern Song?

Thanks in advance for your reply Peter!


Kind regards,


JJ

Hi Peter,


I'm keeping on searching.
I found an interesting reference to the Lingga Wreck.
A wreck with wares almost only from the Guangdong province:
epress.nus.edu.sg/sitereports/lingga/text/ceramicscargocatalogue

When you look at the footrim in picture 26 it seem to be the same, or am I mistaken?
epress.nus.edu.sg/sitereports/lingga/images/26c.jpg

I'm thinking it could be either Fujian or Guangdong province but I also think that the period is firm 1150-1200.

I'll take up contact with Koh to see what he thinks.

Kind regards,

JJ

I think I've found it now:

www.koh-antique.com/guangdong/guangdongmain.html

Number 5: Xing inspired type white ware

"Another common form is bowl with rim with everted rim and relatively tall foot.  They usually have grayish white glaze but there are some which appear more whitish or qingbai-like.  The interior is either plain or decorated with carved motif. Significant quantity was salvage from the Lingga wreck.  There are also some large shallow bowl with relatively fine more whitish glaze."

This would mean it's originated from the Xicun kiln in the Guangdong province, copying Xin white ware.
Given these items being on the Lingga wreck which sank in the early 12th century, I'd change my scope to late Northern Song.
I don't know if they continued this shape and carved motif deep into the Southern Song, that I'll need to find out.

Sorry for so many replies today. I think it's easier for me to write down my thoughts and findings and then coming back to them.

I don't know if you concur with this, Peter?

Kind regards,

JJ
 

May be not. First regarding "Xing-inspired", have you looked at Xing bowls? Xing was a Tang dynasty kiln. What he means with those bowls resembling Xing bowls is probably because of the top rim. But, yours has a completely different rim. Then your bowl is glazed down to the foot.

There were hundreds of kilns at least, that were active in those periods. I do not think it is easy to decide where this is from. Your seller told you it is from a shipwreck? It may just be because of the traces of what seems to be molluscs, but they could be from anywhere, not necessarily a wreck. If you look at shipwreck items they are mostly from the sea, but these could be from any water-logged area, a swamp, river or the great canal. Ceramics used to be transported on waterways, and the great transport canal built in China's past is said to contain sunken ships and boats in large numbers.
My suggestion would be to first identify the molluscs. Even if from the sea, they are usually differing depending on depth, location, etc. Yours has these only at the base, there must be a reason for it. This could mean that only the base was water logged. I also think Song era shipwrecks on the high seas are not that many, or rather their remains are mostly not intact anymore. This again depends on location. Perhaps the bowl is Song, or thereabouts, likely not Yuan or earlier than Song. This depending on the glazing and base shape. As long as there is no decoration to identify them it is difficult to tell where monochromes are from. There are just too many kilns and this is a bowl for the common folks as the impurities in the glaze show. If you had something from the mentioned Xing kiln that would be a different matter.

I would not advise spending too much time in trying to find the origin of this. The quality shows it is not from a mainstream kiln. Perhaps you may encounter a similar one elsewhere some time in the future, then you know.  :)

Hey Peter,

Thanks for the information.
The Xin rim you referred to is the thick rim on top, I assume?
That's indeed so but I think that's only one of the forms they made/copies at Xicun.
Another one would be like this one: high foot, top rim slightly bending outwards with sparse inner decoration and no outer decoration.

You are definitely right on the fact there's only marine growth on the bottom.
Swamps or river bedding is certainly a possibility of origin too I assume.

I know it's wishful thinking being able to pinpoint the origin of a 900 year old ceramic.
Many kilns probably made the same kind of wares and copying eachother.

I'll place it at around 1100-1200 at the moment from Guangdong or Fujian province.
Perhaps it's later even.

Thanks for your insights and help, Peter.
As usual they're always spot on :)


Kind regards,

JJ

Hi Peter,


I just received feedback from Koh.
He said the same!

First half of 12th century, Guangdong province, probably Xicun kiln.

Really glad my efforts were worthwile.
I'm feeling really grateful that there is something like the internet and all the people willing to help out a novice collector for free.

I often imagine how hard it would be to collect without internet references.
That's the benefit of being a 25 year old novice collector these days. The counterside are the millions of fakes out there that are getting better and better!


Thanks for all the help, Peter!


Kind regards,

JJ