Chinese Ceramics & Antiques Discussion

Antique Chinese Ceramics => Chinese Ceramics Discussion => Topic started by: Stan on Oct 27, 2016, 01:11:44

Title: Kangxi famille verte jar
Post by: Stan on Oct 27, 2016, 01:11:44
Hello everyone, here is a large Jar that is missing its lid, I think that this is a Kangxi period Jar, the hight is 35.6 cm and is very heavily potted, this was a lamp when I bought it, but I think it looks much better as a Jar by it self your thought are welcome, I will post 8 photo's to view, thanks.
Title: Re: Kangxi famille verte jar
Post by: Stan on Oct 27, 2016, 01:17:01
Here are three more photo's to view.
Title: Re: Kangxi famille verte jar
Post by: Stan on Oct 27, 2016, 01:18:29
Here is the last two photo's, thanks for viewing.
Title: Re: Kangxi famille verte jar
Post by: billbilly on Oct 27, 2016, 05:16:21
Could you upload photos of the halo effect?
Title: Re: Kangxi famille verte jar
Post by: Stan on Oct 27, 2016, 07:25:25
Hi billbilly, you got me, what is the halo effect? I will send pictures as soon as you let me know, thanks.
Title: Re: Kangxi famille verte jar
Post by: billbilly on Oct 27, 2016, 09:19:14
They look like iridescent circles around the blue enamels.
Title: Re: Kangxi famille verte jar
Post by: Stan on Oct 27, 2016, 12:09:57
There is not that much blue on this vase but here is a close up of the blue and there is an iridescent shine in the blue, is that something that is indigenous to Kangxi period blue enamels? I would like to point out that the iron red is not shiny it has a dull finish, it is the only color on the vase that is like that all the rest of the colors are shiny with small bumps in the glaze.
Title: Re: Kangxi famille verte jar
Post by: billbilly on Oct 27, 2016, 14:20:24
It's one of the signs your famille verte jar is from the Kangxi period. The downside is it's not an imperial ware because of different firing method.
Title: Re: Kangxi famille verte jar
Post by: peterp on Oct 27, 2016, 15:08:59
That is iridescence, and it has nothing to do with the blue enamel. It develops after 100 or more years, but only on porcelain with fencai enamels. That is because the latter was painted 'on' the glaze, which required the application of glass powder on the glaze prior to painting, and also in the paint, to make it stick. The powder contained lead which can appear on the surface, but it would take at least a hundred years.
Title: Re: Kangxi famille verte jar
Post by: peterp on Oct 27, 2016, 15:15:49
The colors and decoration were most widely used in the Guangxu reign. The peony does not show the typical characteristics of the Kangxi reign, but I do not know if these would have been there always. Just be aware that fencai started only to be used in itself  the late Kangxi reign; fencai production was never on a large scale until the Yongzheng reign.
Title: Re: Kangxi famille verte jar
Post by: billbilly on Oct 27, 2016, 15:35:27
I agree lead glazes with coating of metallic oxides cause iridescence and a sign of age. I've seen them. Stan was talking about his famille verte and the blue enamel of non-imperial Kangxi porcelains has iridescence and sometimes in halo form. This is not fencai. Do the colors look powdery to you?
Title: Re: Kangxi famille verte jar
Post by: Stan on Oct 27, 2016, 16:53:28
The only color that looks powdery " not glassy " is the red, it does not have a high shine, the other colors have a glassy shine but a lot of small particles in the enamels that almost feels gritty to the touch, thanks Billbilly and Peter for your expertise.
Title: Re: Kangxi famille verte jar
Post by: Stan on Oct 28, 2016, 00:04:47
I have a question about the powdery look, what exactly do you mean powdery and from what I gathered about the halo is an iridescent look over a long period of time the iridescence forms from the lead that is in the enamels, it almost sounds like what you are saying is that imperial Kangxi porcelain would not have and iridescence look meaning to me that they did not put lead in their enamels is that correct?
Title: Re: Kangxi famille verte jar
Post by: billbilly on Oct 28, 2016, 06:56:04
The common understanding of fencai is it's an opaque palette unlike the Kangxi wucai, but it's more complicated than that. Fencai is a 19th C name for yangcai and ruancai. It's famille rose basically. The quick and typical notion of fencai is its powdery looking texture. Wucai is the opposite. There are those who say fencai, yangcai and Wucai use the same chemical mixtures. Many have argued this topic and I'm not going there. You mostly see famille rose on online auction pages for that same reason to not cause a debate over labels.
Title: Re: Kangxi famille verte jar
Post by: billbilly on Oct 28, 2016, 07:07:06
Salt peter is said to be the cause of iridescence on the Kangxi famille verte but a hypothesis at best.
Title: Re: Kangxi famille verte jar
Post by: Stan on Oct 28, 2016, 07:11:03
Thank so much, great information.
Title: Re: Kangxi famille verte jar
Post by: peterp on Oct 28, 2016, 08:23:36
Please stay on course, I said not mentioned 'famille verte' at all. What I wrote concerns all of fencai enamels no matter what color, because the powder had to be added to all in order to stick. Only modern chemical paints containing a medium do stick on the vitreous glazes.
Those things about iridescence are not a hypothesis of mine, but the result of research in China. Most Chinese collectors know this and many more things that are accessible to them/us because we have access to some research information. FYI, major museums in China all have ongoing research on ceramics at any one time.

BTW, once the iridescence has come through, you can wash it off with warm water, but it will appear again after some time, apparently because the lead has worked itself to the surface. That is also the reason it is recommended to NOT use plates or cups, etc. decorated with fencai enamels for food, because of its toxic contents.
Title: Re: Kangxi famille verte jar
Post by: billbilly on Oct 28, 2016, 11:14:52
Let's stay on course. Didn't I agree on the cause of the fencai iridescence? Are you saying the iridescence on Stan's famille verte the same as the fencai iridescence? Are you saying Stan's Jar is not a Kangxi famille verte?