Several age signs:
Please tell me if I am correct see photos:
Underglaze blue white fishbowl decoration Qing dynasty [ late qianlong ]
measures height 55cm width 60cm
Glaze contractions
Firing faults or rust spots
Cracks, scratches (large ones)
late qianlong blue color or kangxu blue color
Extra photos
Extra photos
I think the double swirl decoration near the top and the color blue would make this a later piece maybe 1st half of the 20th century, in my opinion.
Any other opinions?
The swirl decoration Stan mentioned leaves three possibilities, Ming, 20th century Chinese, Japanese. Ming is out of question. Most of the decoration does look Chinese, so Japanese is unlikely. Leaves 20th century. I would say a few decades old, at the most.
Peter and Stan thanks very much. The only remarque I can make and the response didnt matter for the seller. It was a 60-65 year old man who sold me this bowl. I asked him if he knew where it came from and he told me it was bought by his mother and to him it was always in his family. So the maximum age should go back to around 1920/1930 If his mother bought the bowl as NEW condition. Greetings
People can say anything these days, and older folks can get confused as well, anytime you see a bottom like this, it should raise a red flag, the brown dirty bottom was added to make it look older than it is.
Hello Peter, You are sure the expert but I cannot follow your reasoning. I read the ebook (which was very good) and from this I tookthe conclusion to focus first on age signs.
For the fishbowl, you only look for the double swirl decoration and not for the age signs!.
On the internet I found and equal swirl decoration (respected auctioneer) with the following details of an auction object. Why is the swirl possible in the ming period and then only in the 20th century period (nothing in between)??
Description auction object: Fishbowl yellow fondcolor en famille verte, deceoration with landscapes and royalty 19th century H 34 cm - Diameter 40,5 cm (attached pictures)
Thanks for your help, I am trying to get a better understanding of what I have to look for. I live in Belgium near the Netherlands and it seems that the dutch VOC (dutch east india company) imported a lot of chinese products here from the 16th and 17th century.
(part 1)
First, you should understand that anything can be faked, including age signs, etc. The painted decoration is the part that is most easily copied. Everything to do with the fired clay body or glaze is a different matter. Even if there are age signs, they must be used together with other factors for evaluating age, never alone. There should always be a number of factors, including age signs being the first step in identification. The decoration is part of that too. On the other hand, if only a single verified factor is incorrect for a supposed era, then the whole cannot be from that era. There are a few factors that are almost absolute in denying a certain period or age.
This is something that I am writing up about right now. Some of the decorative elements will also be mentioned in the next ebook. But that is meant for intermediate level, which requires some prior knowledge regarding age signs. I am sure if that had been included in the current ebook, many readers would omit the age signs and jump to premature conclusions because of the more easily recognizable decoration elements. Age signs are the most basic and reliable evaluation factors, but not the only ones.
The item you display above has a colored double swirl band. During the Qing dynasty the swirls were interconnected all around, the colored double swirl is the only type I know of, that did exist. That is usually found on polychrome items from the late Qing dynasty (Guangxu reign), and later.
The emphasis here is on "colored". In my experience the 'no double swirl rule' applies to underglaze blue porcelain even in the late Qing dynasty. I do not think I ever saw a Qing dynasty underglaze blue item with double swirl decoration, that was not in doubt.
(part 2)
Generally, decoration elements may have exceptions, but to me the double swirl is one of the more reliable evaluation factors.
But, there were other decoration elements that draw doubt, on your bowl, which I did not mention. For example the decoration on the very top of the rim is difficult to account for in a traditional frame. That is not a common decoration on traditional Chinese porcelain.
Further, the size of fish bowls is also a question. As far as I know they were generally smaller in the old times, although there are exceptions.
What I recommend to do is to keep it and wait until you see a similar one that comes with age related information. We all have items that we keep for years because we are not sure what we have; that is the nature of collecting. :-)
PS: The bowl in the pictures you uploaded could be late Qing to early republic, rather on the later side, in my view.
Peter, Thanks very much for the detailed explication. I will continue posting objects I find here in Belgium and The Netherlands and trying to give an identification by myself. Greetings Jan
PART 1/2 Hello,
With Peters information I continued my research to look for equal looking giant bowls. It seems that its more a jardiniere than a fishbowl with Lotus blossom decoration. I tried to find pictures from blue white giant jardinieres/fishbowls with double swirl and fullswirl decoration from different ages (Ming to 19th/20th century). In the following list of links you will find my research (7 links)
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www.alaintruong.com/archives/2010/09/01/18951764.html
www.alaintruong.com/archives/2009/11/08/15727760.html
www.bonhams.com/auctions/15288/lot/6352/
Wanli Period
PART 2/2 continued
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www.eliteauction.com/catalogues/111012/view.php?id=141
www.1stdibs.com/furniture/building-garden/planters-jardinieres/pair-chinese-export-large-blue-white-fish-bowls-jardinieres/id-f_494169/
PAIR Chinese Export Large Blue & White 'Fish Bowls'/Jardinieres
www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2013/chinese-works-of-art-n08974/lot.166.html
A MING-STYLE COPPER-RED AND UNDERGLAZE-BLUE VASE
QING DYNASTY, 18TH / 19TH CENTURY
www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-large-blue-and-white-fish-bowl-5719648-details.aspx
A LARGE BLUE AND WHITE FISH BOWL
KANGXI PERIOD (1662-1722)
I have looked at the linked items.
Alain Truong's site is mainly listing the items of various auction houses.
- 1st link to Doyle's item: yes, this is a double swirl; is it 19th century? Not sure. It would be an exception of the "swirl" rule, if it is.
- 2nd link to Sotheby's item: not sure if this is a swirl variation, or if this is something else, like a stylized wave formation. This is apparently Ming. But this is still a double link, not a continuous link all around. I will explain below. This is different from what you have on your bowl.
-3rd link (Bonhams): there is no swirl decoration
- 4th link (Elite): this item looks new to me
- 5th link (1stdibs): (I would rather not say in public what I think of this, so in future, please do not post links to items like this)
The description says: "in the late Kangxi style" ... not sure if this means the style is Kangxi (1644-1722) or Guangxu (1875-1908), which is also called "Kangxi revival" by some. However, the decoration "style" resembles neither of the two, or any other "style" from the Qing dynasty. I wonder if this item would fit into any time before the late 20th century.
-6th link (Sotheby's): This is the same decoration as the 2nd link. See explanation below.
- 7th link: this is a different type of decoration
Term as used here:
"swirl" = ? in Chinese, which means usually a square shaped decoration.
Now to the details of this decoration. I think there is some misconception, we may talk of different things.
The swirl decoration of your item is the blue line. I tried to mark it here. It is a double swirl:
This is a Guangxu double swirl decoration. Each swirl unit has outlines in blue and is filled with a different color.
Now look at the two decorations of Sotheby's items (2nd and 6th links?). Do you see that the swirls (or whatever they are) are made up of outlines in a similar way as those of the Guangxu ones, shown in the image below; but instead of color there is a white core.
Are these lines not all individually ending downward in the white line running along the circumference of the decoration band? Which means, each is just an individual swirl. Do you see the difference between these and the swirls on your item, where there is just one line painted for the swirls, not outlines like those...?
Again, I do not know what those "swirls" in the Ming items depict, but they are reminiscent of another, earlier decoration type that is not connected at all.
Perhaps I should mention another thing.
Not sure what your view is on this, but when comparing items it is recommend to use museum sites rather than commercial sites, simply because their items are more often researched in depth.
The major three (3) auction houses do have mostly authentic items online, but there are exceptions, unfortunately. This just to my personal view. 2nd tier and lower level auction houses are more likely to have items that are not authentic, simply because they do not have the specialists to verify them, or because of their commercial interests. The same is the case with many dealer sites.
Thanks.I cleaned the bowl and bottom this afternoon and other things appeared, ironoxide. Also the rim is not straight
Thanks.I cleaned the bowl and bottom this afternoon and other things appeared, ironoxide. Also the rim is not straight extra photos 2
Hereby also the swirl designs (2 different decorations) of the blue and white 'lianzi' bowl with Xuande mark and period (MING). See link mentioned before
www.alaintruong.com/archives/2009/11/08/15727760.html
Obviously the two "swirl" type decorations you uploaded are different. The lower one is the one usual in the Ming dynasty. Obviously, the top one too, but as I mentioned, the top may not be the swirl ? I am talking about. These are not connected with each other, the are ending in the line below. They may be a stylization of waves or something else.
Look, nobody says your item has no age signs or is new. That is a completely different matter. If you cannot accept that our view is that it may be 20th century, that is fine. We do not claim that our knowledge is perfect or all encompassing. After all, Chinese ceramics span over a thousand years, and hundreds of kilns.
Find a similar decoration that is authenticated by a specialist for the period you think this is, then you know what you have. You could then post the result here. That is the way we do it when we are not sure.
I just tell you that you should forget about this being Kangxi. The peony is not right for Kangxi. Let's see if you can find a swirl decoration like yours on a Qing dynasty item, and if possible one with the decoration on top of the rim, for my part I am always interested to learn something new. There are always exceptions.
But do not forget when looking for the swirl decoration, you need to find the one that is the same like yours "double swirl linked", not something like that shown on the Ming bowl you posted the link of.
And again, having a proper standard for comparison is important. So no commercial sites will do. I am no "expert" just a collector who has had the luck to learn some things directly from Chinese, here in the Far East. When you speak and read Chinese the sources are a bit different, and that is what this is all about. Helping people too removed from the primary sources of information in China to find information that is hard to get by. Here you will find things that you never hear of or read elsewhere, especially in the west. Accept it or not, it is your choice. It is everybody's own choice.
My view regarding provenance is mentioned elsewhere in this website. But basically I am not fond of provenance, because there is a lot of treachery in it. Nothing is 100% sure when it comes to Chinese ceramics, even museums and international auction houses do have fakes, occasionally. And auction experts are humans too; they do not know it all. I made a test sending the same items to two different former auction house employees (different auction houses) for evaluation and the result was completely different. Why did they not agree?
Ah yes, and I am no expert, I'm just a collector who had to learn about ceramics the hard way, from Chinese sources. What I am doing is trying to make it easier for others. This said, I prefer to rely on my own knowledge, sourced in part from Chinese sources, including some research reports, etc. That is my way...what is yours?
The only thing I can recommend is to always get two or more opinions, and to go on to other items. In the future prove to your or our version of age may come around.
Acquire your own authentication knowledge and do not rely on others, that is best. I wish you luck with your quest and if it should come out to be from one of the periods you mention, it would indeed be a rare item.
Below is an image from a handbook for museum personnel in China, published by a government agency, for reference. It shows a few decorations that resemble each other, but in fact are all slightly different. Yours is one of the two top ones on the left. The corresponding Qing decoration is not shown.
Hello Peter, Its not that I dont want to accept its not ming, 20th century or 19th century. I am a novice collector and this giant bowl has attracted my attention. There are a lot of rare things on this bowl (fake or not) .I like to investigate it and try to find out its origin I will not take any conclusions because my knowledge in this area is not enough I can only point to the things I see or find on this bowl. I appreciate your input very much and I learn a lot of this. Attatched 2 extra photos that where made in detail. It seems this is green fluorite inside the clay. China seems to be a origin for green fluorite. I looked allready at the internet to see if there is any knowledge of green fluorite inside chionese porcelain but I cannot find directly. You know anything. As you proposed I will try to contact another expert here and ask him for his opinion and post the results. Thanks again for your patience and help. Greetings Jan
Well I can say this for sure, it is the best article that I have read on double swirls and swirls from different periods yet, thanks Peter.