2 Imari Plates

[kardinalisimo]

Trying to figure approx. age. Late 19th to early 20th century? Or later?
Thanks

[peterp]

The reticulated plate is more recent or Japanese. Cannot tell which.
The other is printed, so it must be recent too. Look at the flowers, leaves and the intermittent lines in blue. The other colors seem to be handpainted.

[kardinalisimo]

Thanks for the reply Peter.
I also think that the plate has mixed decoration of transfer and hand painting.
I don't think the print means recent when it comes to Japanese porcelain. Transferware dates back to 18th century.

[Stan]

The reticulated plate looks like Japanese Imari Mid 20th century and the other plate looks like Chinese trying to copy Japanese Imari, but it appears to have age, late Qing maybe.

[kardinalisimo]

Stan, I don't think the Chinese used prints in the late Qing. I think they did transferware for a short period during the first half of 20th century. Maybe Peter knows when exactly.

[peterp]

Not sure if there was any transfer printing in the first half. Those I have seen almost all seemed to be third quarter, or even later.
Transfer printing never really took off like in Japan and the west. Hand painting has been used far into the 20th century, and it still is. There seem to still be many shops which do the traditional type decorations by hand, which are then fired outside by a kiln (not necessarily not their own). Modern printing is done more in a factory setting, but it looks as if transfer printing never was really popular.

BTW, what I mentioned above is also valid for other crafts, like furniture making, wood carving, etc., which seem to have abruptly changed from purely manual to machine production or computer driven (especially carving) manufacturing.
This happened mostly during the last twenty or so years, apparently, when China opened up to large-scale external trade and foreign manufacturing. Where else should they have had the technology from, so suddenly...?

[kardinalisimo]

here at the very end is mentioned that transfer in China
was used during the first decades of 20th. Not sure how reliable is that info
gotheborg.com/glossary/transferprinting.shtml

[peterp]

As I said not sure when...up to now the few I have seen were all much later. We are talking here about transfers of the whole item decoration, not printing. Small pieces of decorations were applied in China at least as early as the 17th century. I bet most of you have seen these, occasionally, but they are unappealing. As far as I know at least some of the Chinese transfers were using paper. That it the decoration was painted on paper and then via this applied to the porcelain.
Basically, Jizhou decorations used a similar technique already in the Song dynasty (again meaning transfers, not printing). Papercuts, etc. were stuck on the wall of bowls, and after the dark glaze was applied the papercut was removed, showing a design in a different color.

[Stan]

Your right Kardinalisimo, it would have to be latter, and thank you Peter for the history of transferware  and the difference from printing.

[kardinalisimo]

Another possibility is the plate to be Japanese with just underglaze blue transfer that was later overpainted in Europe.

[Stan]

The foot rim on both of these if Japanese would be 20th century.

[kardinalisimo]

Stan, how are the foot rims different on the 19th vs 20th century?

[Stan]

On Japanese 19th centurty chargers  the foot rim look very similar to an 18th century Chinese foot rim, on the 20th century the out side of the foot rim is straight up like the reticulated plate shown the other plate has a little slant but not quite like the earlier ones.

[kardinalisimo]

I know only two types of 18th century footrims on Chinese plates - straight on both sides and straight on the inside and slanted on the outside. Not sure which one you are talking about when refering to 19th century Japanese footrims.

[Stan]

19th century Japanese would be slanted on the out side.