Traditional Famille Rose Plate - Looks earlier than 20th century - is it?

[Kaaren B.]

Hello, all. Yet another pickup at a local sale, this very pretty 6" traditional famille rose plate. Colors are very soft, and there is no "rough" spot on the back where a vendor might have rubbed off an import mark to fool buyers looking for the older ones. I have some glaringly modern famille rose pieces, so it seems to me that I can see the difference. I have included a couple of closeups. Any assessment as to age appreciated! Kaaren

[Stan]

Hi Kaaren, could you take a close up photo of the faces of the women and their hairdo's, thanks.

[Kaaren B.]

Will do. K.

[Kaaren B.]

Here is a closeup of the three figures, one woman, two men. Thanks, Kaaren

[Stan]

Thanks for clearing that up for me " two men and on woman " the faces are out lined in black and the mouth is also in black, the old ones I have seen the faces and mouth is outlined in red, the eyes are a bit strange as well, and it looks like the foot rim is straight up, Im thinking 20th century. BTW this is Canton enamels and the pattern is Rose Medallion.

[Kaaren B.]

Thank you. I  have a small Rose Medallion vase that is garish by comparison - bright red floors, gilt handles, but nicely enough detailed. But it is so modern that I was embarrassed to ask about it here (it was $3 so I didn't care). And I have a Rose Medallion floor vase that I got for $15 that think is from the 1930s, they both have that ubiquitous I think Qianlong? mark.

I have hesitated to ask about these because, well, the stuff is supposed to be old. But I'll give them a try. K.

[Stan]

Hi Kaaren, another thing to keep in mind is pieces that have been altered like the decoration for example, even though the piece could be an antique, it would be considered to be as old as its last alteration, recently I bought a yen yen vase or phenix tail vase, I did not pay that much for it but the vase itself is Guangxu period but the decoration is new, I bought it for discussion at a later time but it looks to me like someone erased the entire decoration and repainted it, the inside and the bottom clearly are Qing dynasty but the outside decoration is new, I would consider it to be a fake, but I did not pay that much and I like dragons and the new decoration is nice, I to have a large rose medallion vase that I posted a long time ago and it to turned out to be touched up in some area's, the blue color that was used was a dead give away, some how they can remove the old decoration and repaint to give it a higher value to people that don't know any better but sometimes the fake is really nice and if you can get it for cheap, it is worth it, I would like to see the vase you have, sounds nice.

[peterp]

Tuning in on this discussion. I have a few dishes with similar faces /eyes and they have "Made in China" marks. It is said that that mark was introduced around 1920, although "China" marks were used earlier. 
I had a good look at famille rose items with people in a book of a museum in Guangzhou (formerly Canton) I have (in Chinese language). It shows only such items up to the Guangxu reign, though. One thing that stands out is that virtually all people, especially the ladies, show some gilt ornaments in the hair, and generally some gilt is used around the heads. Very tiny indeed but clearly visible. If depending on that it may be safe to say 20th century as Stan says. The faces on the dishes with the mark, mentioned above do not have these. The faces are more simple.

Not sure about this, but we might also have to consider the absence of a mark. What does it mean in view of the requirement (by the US) that made marks a necessity on import items in the 1880s?

[Kaaren B.]

Thanks for the input on this item.

Just to say here that there is not only no mark on the bottom, but no evidence of trying to eradicate the mark, which from what I read is nearly always there in some way. The underside is smooth as a baby's bottom.

When I read up on this, the other telltale signs of earlier production were the softer peach-orange in floor areas, as opposed to the deep rather crass red that began appearing after 1900, and the level of detail in birds and flowers.

I have a teacup set from that later period. The sharpness of the design and the bright finish and colors are in marked contrast to this plate.

I also have a famille rose Guangzhou tea pot with the traditional two-goat mark, which I am guessing is from the 1970s. Very, very pretty, but, again you can really see the difference between it and the small vase and the plate under discussion here.

That is why I thought this plate might be late 19th century. KB

The Guaanzhou teapot is so adorable, if anyone would like to see it and the Goat/Milk Bottler mark I will be glad to put it up.

[peterp]

Yes please, show us the teapot.

I would like to add a few things. As Stan indicated, there is always the possibility that something was retouched because it was abraded. There are some other possibilities too. For example, these rose medallions might have been in two or more different qualities, or the faces may differ because the painting was done in a different factory. I don't really know that many details, but these ceramics were painted in the foreign factories and there were about a dozen of them.

As to the mark, the requirement mentioned below was from the US government. It may not be applicable to items made for Europe, originally. So, there is no 'must' have a mark. I'm also a bit confused about rose medallions in general, because some marks are there but the "Made in China" and "China" marks did not correspond to the age I supposed. Anyone knows until when Canton enamels were produced? Originally, I thought until the opium wars, or until the British moved to Hong Kong, but now not sure at all about this.

[Kaaren B.]

It's always worth it to come here for that kind of information, because the story one gets from Google on this kind of thing always seems to be some "standardized" basic, but lacking the nuances we can get here.

I am totally in love with my Guanshou teapot, it's the sweetest chubby little thing. Came with four matching cups but I squirreled those away as I'm running our of display space.

I will try to put that up tomorrow. KB