Wucai Butterflies Vase

kardinalisimo · Aug 27, 2014, 08:29:52

I guess it is an export pieces with that shape.
The body has relief decoration on the exterior but I can't figure the pattern.
If not wrong this kind of motif dates back to Kangxi but the butterflies were painted differently and with more details.
Any suggestions on the age. I am thinking Tongzhi or Republic. Or recent ... It is just in pretty good shape.

Stan · Aug 27, 2014, 09:13:48

Your right the shape dose not look traditional, and the blue looks like a chemical blue, maybe vintage?

peterp · Aug 27, 2014, 09:17:16

This is not a Chinese shape. Given that it was possibly made in China, the colors are chemical, from the 20th century, the glaze is also too white. A modern item, in my view.
The base is not typical for any antique item.

kardinalisimo · Aug 27, 2014, 09:49:40

Thanks for the reply.
Here are similar shapes
https://www.etsy.com/listing/198126161/antique-chinese-porcelain-famille-verte

http://www.rubylane.com/item/1137626-447/Antique-Chinese-Famille-Verte-Cabbage-Leaf

Stan · Aug 27, 2014, 10:37:15

The examples you have given do not even look Chinese, and they are new and the one states antique, it looks bran new.

kardinalisimo · Aug 27, 2014, 11:26:37

What do you mean don't look Chinese? Like, not a traditional Chinese shape and decoration maybe?
I've heard you guys before saying about colors being chemical. How can you tell? They are too strong? And when did the Chinese start using such pigments, post Republic?
By the way, I think they got the general idea with the butterflies from here:
http://www.cultural-china.com/chinaWH/html/en/Arts2177bye7357.html

Stan · Aug 27, 2014, 12:25:35

Your probably right most designs came from copying ancient Chinese porcelain all the way to present, I thought it looked more like majolica than Chinese, at least the ones on the site you gave, the decoration on yours looks more Chinese.

kardinalisimo · Aug 27, 2014, 12:50:17

I don't think I've seen in person a real Wucai piece but are not the colors opaque and hard? To me they look very different from the fencai enamels.
I just learnt that the hard enamels were called 'gucai'. Seems like the very late Republic and the more recent contemporary pieces are decorated with such pigments. Still not sure what a 'chemical' paint is supposed to mean.
http://english.cguardian.com/categories/pwf/2013-11-01/61106.html

Stan · Aug 27, 2014, 13:00:00

Chemical verse mineral pigments.

kardinalisimo · Aug 27, 2014, 21:49:53

According the the comments here(google translated) the other examples with the similar shape are Republic.
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http://jd.cang.com/1078727.html&usg=ALkJrhidBLsUJlHIupAL4TqIwm45_9Ah_g

peterp · Aug 28, 2014, 09:08:40

You should get over it...authentic antique Chinese porcelain is rare, and only a very small percentage that is on the market is genuine. And, those who can really recognize and keep authentic antiques from fakes are fewer than in any other antique category, except perhaps Chinese painting, which also has an abundance of fakes.

This said, I have recommended before not to waste time looking at websites that are not museums, or similar institutions, as you can not be sure that their items are right. This includes auction houses, and even more commercial sites like Ebay, Etsy, Rubylane.
Establishments like the latter three are especially prone to fakes as nobody controls what is sold. None of the links you provided has any convincing antique item, including the butterfly vase that is said to be Kangxi.
IF you must look at commercial websites, then look at the items on Trocadero. They have a higher ratio of authentic items, probably because they make some efforts to keep fakes out.

kardinalisimo · Aug 28, 2014, 10:26:36

I am getting over it

kardinalisimo · Aug 28, 2014, 10:28:03

The links were not intended to proove that these are antique vases but just to show similar shape and decoration.
I was thinking that at least the Kangxi piece on the cultural-china website is authentic.
How about the jd.cang.com forum, do users their have a good knowledge in Chinese porcelain?

peterp · Aug 28, 2014, 13:05:59

Cannot vouch for that. One of the more knowledgeable people left years ago, and the fact was spread all over the Chinese internet. Actually, when I started learning about Chinese ceramics I frequented that forum, but later discovered that some of those I thought were knowledgeable knew less than I thought. They never tell you why something is right or not, they just tell you whether they think it is right or not.
Actually many (or most?) of the forum participants are novices themselves and do not necessarily know much; anyone who wants can give his view regarding authenticity. You have to know who the knowledgeable members are, but there are not that many.
The member rating is point-based, not based on the level of knowledge. So, any answers to item queries could be skewed by the more active novices.
After all, you need to be clear that this is just another commercial website. The forum is one side of it, the selling part another.

kardinalisimo · Aug 28, 2014, 22:53:47

Thanks for letting me know about the members. I've also noticed that there is not much activity on the asianart forum(I've seen you hanging around there before). You can barely get an answer there and seems like there was a lot more going on few years ago.
Sometimes I use the artron.net forum for educational purposes. Mostly to collect images of pieces, decorative motifs etc.