Qing Bowl? With Mark

[smak]

Hi All,


What do you think? What does the words translate to?

[smak]

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[peterp]

I hope you spare me this... :)
Translating auspicious terms and short verses always loses their original meaning in translation without explaining or knowing the attached story or cultural customs etc. in great detail.

Searching for 奇玉寶鼎之珍 results in this:  tinyurl.com/3vue4prv

Some attribute the mark to Kangxi, but it is also present in Japanese Imari.
Basically I have some reservation regarding this. The potting seems fairly thick as is the foot rim, which has a worm back, which in return would be off the normal for Kangxi ware. Not sure what is what. Let us see if Stan has some more decisive information.

[smak]

Hmmm that is interesting indeed! Does have them on imari dishes. Just super curious where this came from!

[Stan]

The Mark is in my book on Chinese marks, it reads " Precious as rare stone and excellent jade." Qi Shi Ding Yu Zhi Zhen " is how it reads in Chinese" Kangxi but I agree with Peter it looks more Japanese than Chinese, is the bottom of the foot flat or rounded as far as the mark goes it is not in my book for Japanese Imari Kangxi marks, this is written exactly the way it is in my book on Chinese marks, the Japanese marks were never that precise as far as I know the, if the bottom foot is flat I would lean more to Japanese and the color blue would be a Meiji blue

[peterp]

Hi Stan,
Are you sure the characters are the same? From your pinyin reading and the English translation I get what the characters must be. Although the meaning expressed is similar, only part of the characters would be the same as on the item. However, if they indeed are all the same, then the pinyin and translation would be incorrect.

[Stan]

Hi Peter, The book is " Marks on Chinese Ceramics " reference 2533, the mark is Identical.
Does that mean that it is Kangxi mark and period, that would be amazing, I know in the later Kangxi period they were copying Imari Japanese porcelain, if so I have never seen a blue and white copy from the Kangxi period before, now the typical five shades of blue is not present on this bowl.

[Hmm]

I think Peter is wondering about the shi, which in the picture, the mark is instead bao for treasure.  Are you sure the mark in your book isn't using 實?

[peterp]

Actually I was thinking that "shi" referred to 石, because of the Chinese penchant for collecting/displaying rocks and stones of odd shapes.

If the Chinese characters are the same as those one on this item, then both the pinyin reading an the translation are simply wrong. This should be as follows.

奇玉　　　寶鼎　　　之珍　　　　Pinyin reading:  Qi Yu    Bao Ding    Zhi Zhen

The first pair means "odd jade(s)", the second "precious censer*", the third "rarity of". Now you turn this around to get a more reasonable meaning in English like: 'Rarity of unusual jade and precious censer'

(*the Chinese term actually means a censer (or cauldron) with four legs, as used in ancient times)
Actually, the very first character 奇 has many translations, like "strange / odd / weird / wonderful / unusual".

I'm afraid that 2533 may not be a proper translation.

Also, I assume that " Marks on Chinese Ceramics " reference 2533 -- refers to G. Davison's mark book? I do not have that, so I do not know what the Chinese looks like. But to me it looks as if this translation is wrong. Hope it is the only one.

[peterp]

To Stan:
The foot rim consistency does not look like typical Kangxi either, and it has a worm back. Even if Kangxi porcelain had that mark, it would not mean that other periods did not use it. It is not a reign mark.

Basically this mark looks Chinese, but there are lots of Chinese marks that were used more often on Japanese porcelain than in China, judging by the frequency we encounter them nowadays. Therefore, I would suggest to temporarily not assume that this means it was made in the Kangxi reign, as the Japanese also used it. And yes, I also think this does not look like the typical blue. I would think the foot rim shape/width, the worm back, and the blue color tone would only fit a Dehua kiln item (not JDZ), if Chinese.

BTW, in my Chinese mark book there is quite a number of similar marks ending with 之珍. The listing for Kangxi shows three similar marks all starting with 奇石 (qishi) but only one starting with 奇玉 (qiyu) in the Kangxi reign. That is where a wrong transcription might have come from, influenced by the other, similar marks which use it.

[Stan]

Thanks Peter for the proper translation.

[JjGhandi]

The mark reads "Qi yu bao ding zhi zhen" : "Precious as a treasured ding of rare jade"
It's a Kangxi mark


Kind regards,

JJ

[JjGhandi]

But I agree the blue and foot rim are not JDZ Kangxi in my opinion.
It seems really thickly potted too.

After a quick search I find this mark only on high(er) quality Kangxi items, mainly bowls.


Kind regards,

JJ