Ming Wanli Mark Bowl

smak · Mar 01, 2022, 13:31:48

Hi all, what do you think? I have some doubts.

smak · Mar 01, 2022, 13:32:27

more

smak · Mar 01, 2022, 13:33:04

more

smak · Mar 01, 2022, 13:33:25

more

peterp · Mar 01, 2022, 13:45:30

Looks indeed as if it was late Ming.

In unused condition. If it wasn't for the uneven and slightly deformed top rim I would think it is suspicious for its excellent pristine condition. :)

smak · Mar 01, 2022, 13:56:00

Thanks Peter!

You think this bowl is really real? I thought it looked too goood!

Seller is asking $350 USD, and I thought that was too good to be true as well.

smak · Mar 01, 2022, 13:57:12

Also with the rein mark, does this mean its imperial? Or ? And in what occasions are the rein marks used during Wanlin period? (Trying to learn more about the marks).

Many Thanks!

peterp · Mar 01, 2022, 14:07:33

A bit too expensive, in my view, and no a reign mark is not necessarily an imperial mark. This one is not. Private kilns did also use reign marks.

The emperor's reign name and year was a normal type of year notation in ancient China and other places. It is still used this way in Japan today. I would recommend to look at the seller's other items. If others are also in this condition it is recommended to stay away.

The use of reign marks was limited only in the Kangxi reign, but a reign mark does not always mean an item is of the period, or authentic mark and period.

smak · Mar 01, 2022, 22:30:35

Thanks for the clarifications Peter!

Would you say this is a nice reproduction of a Ming bowl?

Or when would you say this was made?

Stan · Mar 02, 2022, 04:42:18

Hi Smak, I have a lot of Chinese Antique porcelain, and my concern is what Peter has already mentioned, it looks to fresh, there is no ware marks, to me it is a good fake, but what do I know.

peterp · Mar 02, 2022, 08:06:47

This is a problem nowadays, some fakes are getting so good that it is impossible to tell if they are authentic or not. And it is not just the Ming and Qing wares.

There is a risk factor involved when buying such items, especially if one has no way to use a magnifier or do a hands-on inspection. You might have an exceptional antique item or an excellent fake. There is no way to tell from these pictures. I buy sometimes items that are risky, but with the price tag you mentioned I would abstain. After all, even with the mark it is still a private kiln item of average quality.

That is what I call a borderline item. It may be very good or just another fake. With such items I also consider if it might be easy to sell them at a reasonable price, later, if I would not want to keep it. And that is where the problem comes in, even if it is authentic. A potential buyer may have doubts because of its excellent condition. With such an item I would look at the seller and his other items. Does he understand his wares? If he does have many of similar quality, this may mean these are 'new' antiques.

smak · Mar 02, 2022, 11:24:37

Thank you both!

The seller does seem to have some similar items and some older and more commonware. I offered the seller $200 usd and he accepted, now I'm not completely sure if I should still get it. I do agree it looks unused and that makes me have some doubt.

peterp · Mar 02, 2022, 12:11:36

Is he online, perhaps on Ebay? If yes then I would be careful. I would make sure the seller knows his wares by first observing what he sells. Also be aware that many items on Ebay US are laundered; with that I mean that Chinese fakes are sold and resold and offered by legitimate local sellers who know little about these, and unknowingly or knowingly sell fake items. Sellers who are not specialized on Chinese ceramics often do not have the knowledge to tell what is genuine and what not. If you have difficulties deciding on where to buy genuine antiques "online" we might be able to help with advice. :)

If you want to look at examples of that period, in order to compare, then try to look at Ming Kraak wares. These were basically made from the Jiajing/Wanli reigns to the end of the Ming dynasty and some are of very good quality.

smak · Mar 02, 2022, 12:26:17

Yeah the seller is on ebay!

Yes! Do you have any recommendations to where I can buy genuine antiques online?

peterp · Mar 02, 2022, 14:33:25

This is from my personal experience, but I have not bought items from Ebay for a long time.
When I first checked Ebay many years ago I was not enchanted with the many fakes being sold. But that was on ebay.com. Later I found that ebay.com is a kind of fakes market where fake items, certificates and the like are offered. In the beginning they were offered directly from China, then later they (the fakes) went on sale via local sellers.
The problem was that searches mostly showed only sellers in the US. Later I discovered that an ebay.ca lots of overseas sellers were listed, and that is when I started buying there. The searches brought up many sellers from Europe. Guess what, that is the place where most of the export porcelain in the 18th century went. And there were apparently still huge quantities that never were used, possibly in storage.
The probability of getting authentic antiques was much higher than here in the Far East.

It is just that the shipping may (or may not be higher). At the time the parcels from Sweden and the US were about 50 USD per piece, in average, then. The UK and the Netherlands were much lower. I know the the fees went up in the Netherlands, but not about the rest of Europe.
One thing to mention is that if you buy abroad you need NOT pay import duty for antiques of 100 years and older, in most countries. An article regarding the details of this can be found here in the main site via search box. It should be mentioned by the seller in or on the parcel that the content is an antique item, because customs personnel cannot know. Otherwise they might deduct duty.

FYI, I'm in Taiwan, with Japan not too far away, where I occasionally buy. The total fees amount to about the same as from Europe or the US. I evaluate with each item if it is worth the fees, but usually it is. I couldn't get anything nice and authentic here in Taiwan nowadays. It is all new or fake what is on offer, or the quality not worthwhile.

In the past I bought several times via Catawiki. They have a good safeguard in place where people check the items before auctioning them. It may be worthwhile. At the very minimum one can see a lot of genuine antiques and learn from these. :-)

Others may have more suggestions on where to get things.