B/W Ginger Jar

[Stan]

Hi Peter, here is another Ginger jar, I think this one is late Qing, but I would like to get your opinion, look inside at the bottom, could it have been replaced or was it made that way could this be older than late Qing?

[Stan]

here are two more photo's to view.

[Stan]

Here are the last two photo's to view, thanks Peter for all your help.

[peterp]

A replacement is not impossible, but not to make it look older. I do not think they would an already old item fit with an older bottom. It would not be worthwhile.

Did you note that the prunus blossoms are painted in an early Qing style? Also, the prunus ginger jars I see normally show the outlines of the blossoms clearly. Also, the background is painted in many places over the contours of the blossoms and other decoration lines. It might be that this was originally late Qing, Kangxi revival, but with those blossoms it could also be that dark background was painted later unto an item that did not have a dark background.


BTW, with Qing dynasty items the bottom would normally be one piece with the lower part of the jar, not like some Yuan wares; falling off is not that easy. But if they replace a jar bottom they would probably cut the sides just above the bottom and then attach the bottom from an old shard. That sometimes results in a line visible on the side, near the bottom, because the flow of the glaze covering the the seam could not be controlled while in the kiln.

[Stan]

Hi Peter, trying to get good quality pictures is difficult for me, I stlll have not read the manual, only enough to take half way decent pictures, I purchased these jars together and it looks like they were made the same way both jars were made in two pieces, there is a seem in the middle of the jars, they used a tool to float out the excess and you can see what appears to be Chatter marks in the inside where the pieces came together. I think that the tool they used gouged the bottoms on one you can see the excess, I do not see any evidence of the bottoms being joined from the out side and the inside I can see a slight tapering where a tool left these marks, I wonder if they were made at the same time or by the same potter, also I would like to point out the blue that looks black is where the blue overlapped and pooled crating blisters that appear black but are clearly a darker blue from pooling and blistering, I will post more photo's hopefully showing this, thanks peter for you expertise.

[Stan]

Here are more photo's.

[Stan]

Here are the last set of photo's, thanks for view.

[peterp]

Hi Stan,

The top of the jar shown here looks newer, perhaps because of the light?
I do not know how they did remove the seams, but would expect that they did it with the fingers while the clay was still wet, just after fitting the parts together. If they let the clay dry first, it would require a metal or bamboo scraper to remove the traces as it would be too hard by then.

Actually, I have been thinking whether this might have been a line decoration originally, on the prunus jar, and later a blue background was added. No way to know that for sure, though.
The prunus jar and its neck just look old.
There may be several explanations why glaze is seeping out of the line along the base. My guess is that the bottom needed replacing for some reason, either before firing the first time, or when the blue background was painted. They would have used glaze to attach a new one. That could explain why no trace of this is visible outside. The soft glaze inside the kiln may have covered all traces, except that one inside. I do not think a ginger jar would have the bottom exchanged by another, old one, with the purpose to fake age. A prunus jar is just too common and inexpensive to be worthwhile doing this.
My personal opinion.

[Stan]

Hi Peter, thanks for your thoughts on these jars, I agree, I do not think the bottoms have been changed it would not make any sense, and you are right the reason the jar looks new, you guessed right I had to use a bright light to get the inside picture of the jar and so the top is overexposed, so it would seem that we are back to where we started " Late Qing " May be ?

[Stan]

Here is a picture of the jar that was overexposed, sorry I missed a full view picture so here it is.

[peterp]

There is no way to tell at this time, perhaps, but I will pay attention and see if something like this comes around.

[Stan]

Hi Peter, I looked at several ginger jars that I have in possession, I didn't think to look at my own collection, I have ginger jars from early Qing to late Qing, only one had a bottom not quite as gouged as these but a shrinking crack all around the inside bottom, note, caused by shrinking when fired in the kiln, these jars were tooled to make these gouges at the bottom of the foot, other jars I have mid Qing show spider cracks around the middle of the jars where they were joined together. and early Qing jars showing the obvious seam with the porcelain bead closer to the foot about an inch from the bottom up and then the late Qing jars look similar to these but the neck and top is glazed were these are unglazed, interesting, could these be fakes, that would explain the pattern that we have not seen on the one jar and the inside foot that has been cut using a tool.

[peterp]

A seam only one inch from the bottom would be a bit low, unless it was from a repair. I would expect it somewhere in the 1/3 to 1/2 height range.

As mentioned elsewhere removal of the seam traces started in about the Kangxi reign, so one can expect that the outside does not show any seam, but some traces may or may not be visible inside. If there is a very prominent seam visible, meaning not even a try at removing it was made, then this may be suspicious with jars from the Qing dynasty. That might point to a possible fake. Fake seams were made by applying a paste (not sure what it was made of) along the surface to imitate one.

Generally said, Qing dynasty ginger jars should have an unglazed neck and shoulder, but some Guangxu ones have a glazed neck. I suppose this is because these were made for export.