Daoguang/Republic Period Lidded Jar

[bokaba]

Do you think this lidded jar is Daoguang period as marked or later, maybe Republic? The faces look a bit lively for early to mid 19th Century to me.

[bokaba]

Additional pictures

[Stan]

Hi Bokaba, I will give you my Two cents worth, I agree the faces are to detailed leading us to think 20 century, but they are also outlined in black, faces from that period were always outlined in red clear into the republic period, Im not sure if there were exceptions to that rule, also the persimmon tree is questionable, if Daoguang it would have been peaches, but the jar is very nicely done, the mark also is Zhuanshu script where in the early Republic and republic it would have been a 4 character mark, so my conclusion is 2n half of the 20th century.

[bokaba]

Thanks Stan. The faces are too detailed to be anything other than 20th Century, just when in the 20th Century is the question I suppose. I wouldn't discount Republican based solely on the six character mark. Many six character Zhuanshu mark pieces claimed to be Republican have sold at Sotheby's and Christies.

Here is an example of a similar jar that Bonhams sold as Daoguang period that features pomegranates:

www.bonhams.com/auctions/20579/lot/73/

I also don't think the face outlines are black, they appear to be reddish.

[Stan]

The one on Bonhams is very similar to yours but the faces on theirs is out lined in orange or red and no Persimmon tree, I was told that the Zhuanshu mark was not done in the republic period 1912 - 1949 and that marks like this was found in Items from the 50's and 60's or later, the ones from the 50's though 60's were high quality pieces like yours, also I would like to point out the crackle on yours was induced and not from age, the one on Bonhams dose not show crackle at all.

[Stan]

Im showing you this vase it is one that I posted several years ago, it has a Zhuanshu mark more importantly it says made at Jingdezhen, I was told then that marks like these were not until 1950's and up, but the persimmons on mine is similar to yours and the same high quality.

[peterp]

Stan, the whiteness of the glaze in yours can only mean one thing. In ancient times they could not make them that white.

[peterp]

I would like to apologize to both, Stan and Bokaba, for any lack of instruction regarding the qualities of certain porcelain wares. What we talk about in this forum and website is mostly porcelain made in private kilns, made for private use. That is because imperial porcelain and non-imperial porcelain of similar quality, made at either a private or the official kiln is extremely rare and can usually be seen only in museums or at major auctions. If you are interested how these higher quality wares actually look, and how they differ from the usual private kiln wares, you will have to study such the wares of the imperial collection.. There are some differences in features and often they do not fit into the descriptions used for private kiln wares or export porcelain. Porcelain of imperial quality but made by private kilns do also exist, at least made in the Qing dynasty, but probably more often than not these are kilns which also have to supply porcelain to the imperial court as tribute and thus had the people to paint them in accordance to higher quality requirements.
The current item shows some details that may have features that are different from what one sees on the market. First to the people. Usually, with private kiln wares details of eyes like eye brows, lashes, etc. are mostly appearing only in the very late Qing dynasty to early republic period. However, looking at imperial wares of the Qianlong reign, for example, we see that many items already had detailed faces. Actually, the emperor had virtually any quality and detail in his collection. The people here resemble such higher quality wares, even the design of the cloth itself is quite elaborate. Such details may have appeared in imperial wares of the Jiaqing and Daoguang reigns, as the same people would still have been working as painters in those times. Not necessarily so from Tongzhi onward, though. ***

Note:
*** That is because in the Xianfeng reign (between Daoguang and Tongzhi) the official (=im perial) kiln and probably many other kilns in Jingdezhen were destroyed during the fighting with the Taiping rebels. Although at the end of that reign the official kiln was re-established, quality would have suffered, because many kiln workers would have left to make a living elsewhere.

[peterp]

My analysis for this jar would be as follows.

Pro M&P features:
- The vase shows a higher quality of painting details, even the lid button is decorated with more than average detail.
- There is a greenish bottom of light green color. Green bottoms did appear in the Qianlong reign and originally were mostly of light color, similar as this one. Second half of 19th century items do not usually have this light color. Not sure about imperial items of that period, though.
- Items having the green color either on the bottom, the inside, or both,  were usually made in the later 19th century, Tongzhi/Guangxu reigns, but they do have a darker green color tone.
-The Daoguang zhuanshu mark shown here would be perfect for a period imperial mark. Notably is that it is also positioned properly as an imperial mark would be required, a detail that is often overlooked by fakers (!).
- The white glaze visible in the upper half is of the mellow type. Bright white (snow white) glazes usually point to a manufacture from the early 1900s onwards.

Unclear features:
Unclear means here that these features do not completely conform to imperial ware, but there may be a reasonable explanations.
- The foot rim does not seem to have a worm back as imperial wares would.
- The black color of the top hair knots on the boys are a bit too black.

As to the crackles, I mentioned this in several places, but certain colors do develop crackles more easily than others. The crackles in the light blue color here appear to be of this type. They do not show the regularity of artificially induced crazing. (Which by the way should cover all of the item. They way to induce them is by opening the kiln early, which causes the glaze to crack all over.)
Some old items from the late Qing dynasty with yellow background also show crazing. It may be due to the components of the fencai color.

[peterp]

Having presented what I can see in this jar from my perspective, I have to say that there is a good chance that it is M&P, but I cannot be sure because this class of ware is not what I am familiar with. The doubts about the foot rim and black hair, and the lack of images of the inside of lid and jar makes it a bit difficult to be sure. There is also a question why the bottom looks o dull. A magnifier would be required to check whether it was treated...
Anyway, I would suggest to find someone experienced with imperial wares, perhaps a major auction house or similar. They may be able to do a hands-on inspection.

[Stan]

Hi Bokaba, I know of the seller on eBay that is selling this vase, and he has top high class fakes, in order for me to except that this is authentic Daoguang porcelain, you will need to show me one piece from the daoguang period, it dose not need to be Imperial, just of the period showing crackle in the bluish turquoise color and it should be from a reputable auction house, other wise I think you are paying to much.

[peterp]

After looking at the seller's other items I must agree with Stan. It looks now that is likely that it is a high quality fake as the seller has too many 'high quality' items that would be normal in a major auction, but not on Ebay.
I should mention that an item with yellow background color, showing similar crazing was confirmed as being from the late Qing dynasty, many years ago.
I thought the item is yours already. Anyway, it would be advisable to stay away unless a hands-on inspection of glaze and interior with magnifier is possible beforehand. Although the item looks good, the presence of too many others in perfect condition in the same place is strange. You would find so many together only in some museums. Too many high quality items in one place may indicate that they 'all' are fakes. Just be careful, it is better not to buy such items online, or from pictures alone.

[Stan]

Thanks so much Peter for taking the time to explain the differences of Imperial porcelain and private kilns, I am always learning important things about Chinese Antique Porcelain.

[peterp]

Thank you Stan. I'm always learning new things too...if those crackles were induced artificially, then they must have added a new technique I never heard of yet. The only way I could imagine is that the color in those areas was painted with a different medium, otherwise it would have been difficult.
Artificial ceramic crackles are created by opening the kiln door early during the cooling process, that means the development of crackles happens on the whole item. One can not control that. But the blue color is not uniform on this item, it might be that this is what is causing it. Or the crackling is everywhere, but we only see it where something was rubbed into them to make them visible. Would be nice to check such an item with a microsope to see how it is done.