Possible Ming Dynasty Two Color Sancai Chinese Porcelain Incense Burner Need ID

[knutzkoll]

Mystery Ming Piece? VERY unusual to say the least! This I call a Two Color Sancai Drip Glazed Incense Burner in the form of a Phoenix Bird with Wings and a Woman Riding in center. One piece Molded Tea Pot Shaped Incense Burner. The Tail is the only hand molded piece. The Woman Figural Lid or Top is actually Molded together with the rest of the piece NOT a Lid but solidly one piece with the rest of the pot! She has her hands raised and it is obvious that the Incense Burns in her hands because it is quite burnt stained (see pictures) and she has an air hole in her chest at hands level. Phoenix neck & head is a hollow spout going into the body. It is quite old, Mummified with age, and I feel could easily go back to the Ming Dynasty Era. Measuring 7.5 inches high and 7 inches wide and has no Identification marks. When looking at it with a Loop on the face and cloths it looks like it has some minute specks of paint remains but could be Calcium Deposits also. Im asking you Experts, "Is It Chinese Or Other" - "How Old" - "How Does It Work!". ANY Information would be Great! REAL Mystery Piece! Thank You! Gary K

[peterp]

If it is Chinese it can only be from the 20th century. The attire, especially the short sleeves would be unlikely earlier. The shape is not at all a traditional shape. What it was used for may not be what it was intended for. Incense traces? Do you think the tiny hole was for inserting sticks, or incense was burnt inside? The former is possible, but hardly the intention of this. The latter is impossible because incense stops burning with lack of air. If the figure is not a lid but firmly attached, did you try to immerse the item in water to see if the hole goes through?
The size of the whole item and the tiny hole are also important. Such holes are often found on water droppers, which are immersed to fill the vessel through it. However, again, this does not look like a classic Chinese shape at all. The indent along the foot rim is also not something seen in Chinese porcelain, normally.

[knutzkoll]

Thank You for your very knowledgeable Reply! Im sure you are right about age. Wasn't real sure about the attire the Lady is wearing mainly focusing on the pleated skirt. Short sleeves wouldn't have been used in the Ming Dynasty you are right. The Only other hole besides the hole in her chest is at the top of the Phoenix head for it is a pouring type spout that is hollow going into the Pot body. So it does have two holes. Examining it with a Loop it sure looks very old which I would think it would be older then the 20th Century. Here face is definitely Asian could it be Korean or Taiwan or other? Thanks Again for your Help! Sincerely, Gary K

[peterp]

> Here face is definitely Asian could it be Korean or Taiwan or other?
No, Korean and Taiwanese porcelain is completely different. But it still goes back to the blouse. Looks like something worn by the Chinese ladies who were young in the mid 20th century, that is from the second to third quarter. But this does not mean it is Chinese in style. Could be SE Asia as well. There are many Chinese living in SE Asian countries too.

[knutzkoll]

Thanks Peter for continuing responding to this Topic. I do believe I finally located a similar enough item that may identify my Pottery Piece.  Here is the link for a Picture and Description of the same item I have but of course different. www.alamy.com/bird-shaped-ewer-with-crowned-rider-holding-a-bowl-goryeo-dynasty-9181392-12th-century-korea-origin-korea-date-11001199-medium-image23592    My Piece is a KOREAN POTTERY FIGURAL EWER FOR WATER and feel strongly (not to make it more valuable) that it is from the same time period, GORYEO DYNASTY 12TH CENTURY. It is an inferior piece compared to the one Pictured and using different Glazes then the well known Celadon.  If you get a real close-up look at the Celadon piece and its Crowned man's Face comparing it to the woman's Face on my piece you will see they are both very similar in style.  both are a Carved and Molded face with pronounced eye lashes and the ears are both flattened and in a rectangle shape very distinct features.  I am knowledgeable about Ancient Pottery having studied and delt with Collections including some Ming items and feel very strongly this Pottery Ewer of mine can easily Date back to this time Period of the 12th Century. With an Eye Loop it really is a Road map of age the right kind of age needing to be this old. I did look for early 1900's Copies of pieces similar to mine on the Net but it would only refer me back to 12th Century Celadon pieces.  The Early Koreans of the 12 century did use Amber Glazes like mine on Inferior pottery but couldn't find Figural Pieces in the same colored Glazes.  My Pottery Ewer's Glazes are almost identical to Sancai Glazes but missing the Green Glaze.  What's your Opinion Peter? Gary K

[knutzkoll]

Din't Work!!  Here is it again:    www.alamy.com/bird-shaped-ewer-with-crowned-rider-holding-a-bowl-goryeo-dynasty-9181392-12th-century-korea-origin-korea-date-11001199-medium-image235925807.html

[peterp]

First, please have a look at the forum rules for placing links to pictures and/or commercial sites here.

There is no doubt that the celadon item is Korean. I happen to be collecting some of that type of porcelain too, but without mentioning the figurine and the shape, the bottom is always one of the most important things we look at. This is in no way a Korean bottom, as it is not a traditional Chinese or traditional Japanese bottom. There is a world of difference, I'm afraid.
And similar motifs were used throughout the ages and copied by other cultures (e.g. China made Persian shapes too), but the styles are still quite different. We don't judge items by such superficial features like decorations only, we look at several (at least five) different features of an item, like shape, decoration,  bottom/foot rim shape, clay color, etc. to decide age, authenticity, etc. Motifs were copied in different places, items of a specific Chinese kiln that used glaze colors like this one, can be found in Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Thailand. There should be at least least something similar to a specific kiln or period, if it was over a hundred years. There is nothing this compares with among all I have seen from the China/Korea/Japan area. I would be glad to hear of any proof to the opposite, but excuse me, this comparison to ancient Korean porcelain is too far off. There are similar motifs or copied shapes everywhere, but they usually show traits of specific kilns, etc.
Korean porcelain is completely different from your item. And yes, by the way, Korean traditional clothing was different too. The only I can say is it might be from SE Asia, or from some obscure, remote kiln, but not completely sure.

I would advise to show this to someone who can do a hands-on inspection. The old look can be deceiving sometimes.

[knutzkoll]

Thank You very much I am sure you are right. I really din't think it was the same as the Korean Piece I showed you. Just thought I would shoot it out there at you to see what you would say. But it does have some minor similarities that I mentioned. Sorry about the Link. I was to caught up in the moment to remember about that rule. Will let you know what I find out about this Pottery piece as I continue to research it. Best Regards, Gary K