Kraak Charger plate with Rabbit mark

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Hi All,

Need your thoughts! I have some doubts!

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[peterp]

Yes. this is not right. How big is this?
It is possibly Japanese or from elsewhere, but not Ming Kraak, in my opinion. Explanations given below.

For a time I have had a great interest in Kraak and also had the opportunity to see some you will not easily find onine because they apparently rare. I had also the opportunity to handle one of the worlds largest (diameter 53cm) and see some reare bottles etc. in Kraak style.
My conclusion was that Kraak porcelain plates with people do exist, but are rare, and I doubt there would be one with a fisherman. Warriors or scholars would be more likely. All items I handled had no marks, but the book of Rinaldi shows Kraak wares with egret marks, no other as far as I remember. You probably noted the mark is off-center...?

Why I think it is not Chinese:
First, all of the genuine Kraak items I handled or own do have a slightly different foot rim, and they do not show any, or not so many (and prominent) chatter marks. Japanese copies of Ming items often have many chatter marks which are clearly visible. They also often have more kiln grit along the foot rim than the Cinese ones.
They eyes and face of the man and some minor decoration details do give the impression that this is not Chinese.

Could it be Japanese? Not sure, but the face features do not look quite like Japanese painting to me either, it looks more as if it was more recent. Some Japanese Kraak bowls were made in the 19th century and are very good copies of the Chinese ones, except that the blue color hue has a more purplish hue.

In my view this is unlikely Chinese;  Japanese - perhaps, but its painting style does not much resemble some other old Japanese Kraak copies I have seen, thus I have doubts.
According to Rinaldi about six countries made Kraak wares...so it is not only a problem of old or modern, but also one of other origins.

[Stan]

This could not be authentic Japanese porcelain from the 17th century, the blue color would have been imported and the blue a completely different color blue, could it be a later Japanese copy anything is possible but the blue is wrong for 18th century also, it would have to be later, but I do not think it is Japanese.

[peterp]

The color of Chinese Kraak.

(A part of the Troesch collection.)

[Stan]

Great picture of the blue colors on Kraak ware, The blue color is very different on 17th century Japanese porcelain, I have a photo but it is from the British Museum from the Dutch East India company on the front VOC, dated 1660. I would post it but I am not sure if I would be violating copy right privileges, the photo dose not say copy right.

[peterp]

If it is the museum's picture, it depends on their terms of use, if it was taken by someone else, the rights may be his or hers. If it is your own picture, then you may have the rights, if the museum does not restrict publication.

You could consider a direct link to the museum webpage holding the image ... that should pose no problem.

[Stan]

Several years ago, the British Museum had a huge collection of 17th and 18th century Japanese porcelain showing fronts and backs of each item so I made a file and copied every piece, I use it for reference when looking at edo period items, usually there is something in the photo that will say something about copy rights but there was nothing in these photo's so maybe I could post it, I have front and back, is that OK. I do not have the web link, I only copied all the photo's with a brief description.

[peterp]

I would place a picture in a cloud server like Dropbox or Flickr and post the link.
BTW, I have some Japanese Kraak bowls here which have a slightly different hue from the rest of the Japanese ones I have seen. According to Rinaldi's book they are from the 19th century, but there decoration style is an exact replica of Chinese ones. Only the blue pigment and bottom is different.

[Stan]

Hi Peter, I tried to find the information for a web site to refer to on a Charger that I was comparing from a museum that I copied images from, two museums came up, one was Gardiner Museum and the other Met Museum, the collection I viewed was the Macdonald Collection of Japanese porcelain, I can not say for sure that the plate or Charger VOC is Japanese or chinese, I am not familiar with either museum and I do not want to miss lead anyone, some times even the museums get it wrong, I apologize for that, until there is more definite to origin I will with draw my opinion however I will say the placement of the stilt marks are a bit strange, they are centered around the rabbit only and not the bottom of the plate, I have never seen that before.