Gu vase. Yuan?

Pablo82 · Dec 19, 2019, 05:13:51

Hi Peter and Stan,
I think this time it could be a real Yuan. H cm. 20. Please your opinion!

Pablo82 · Dec 19, 2019, 05:14:59

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Pablo82 · Dec 19, 2019, 05:15:56

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peterp · Dec 19, 2019, 09:35:33

Hi Pablo, just another fake, in my view. I would recommend to stay away from the source of all these Yuan wares. They do not have genuine ones, most likely.
The chrysanthemum is partially painted in Yuan style, but the center is not Yuan. Chrysanthemums do usually have one of two configurations in the center, one is a criss cross pattern, the other a spiral.
Unless you go to an auction you are unlikely to ever encounter a large item like this. They are just too rare.
Did you note that inside the mouth or anywhere on the glaze there are no age signs, after supposedly 600+ years?

Correction:
Just discovered that there is a third type of chrysanthemum center in the pictures of the museum collection in Turkey. But it is still not the same as in these pictures.

peterp · Dec 19, 2019, 17:49:27

For consideration. In my book on Yuan BW wares in the Topkapi museum not a single Gu vase was mentioned, neither does the online database of the National Palace Museum in Taiwan show any. Not sure if there were none then, or if they are just not listed. Would be interesting to hear of any such item in a major collection.

Pablo82 · Dec 20, 2019, 06:45:26

Hi Peter, thank you once again for your precise and instructive answers.
I apologize for the low quality of my pictures. In my previous ones it was not possible to see the configuration in the center of the chrysanthemum, it has actually a criss cross pattern. The photos that I am sending here show two chips, some parallel lines of craquelÃ© and the external part of the top rim where, with the help of a magnifier, I could see small and numerous signs of abrasion, spread out on the entire area. The glaze is silky all over the vase but more opaque inside the mouth.
The source of this object is not the same as the one of the two fake Yuan/Ming of my previous posts (they were in a thrift shop). This vase comes from the same source of the fencai bowl of my last post. It comes from a wealthy guy who collected in the 80ies. He also showed me some buying certificates of that period.
I found on Flickr a photo, don't know if it could be relevant, of two similar Gu vases (a bit different shape), located in the Capital Museum of Beijing.
www.flickr.com/photos/sftrajan/7205631924/
Thank you so much, and forgive me if l frequently take advantage of your time and experience.

Pablo82 · Dec 20, 2019, 06:46:15

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Pablo82 · Dec 20, 2019, 06:47:00

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peterp · Dec 20, 2019, 07:53:08

Pablo, if you already bought it I would suggest to take it to someone near you, an auction house, etc. to have it viewed. I still think that it is difficult to decide if it might be genuine, from pictures alone, even with the additional pictures you uploaded. The glaze problem still exists, that may need a hands-on inspection.

One more thing, I'm not sure whether the small leaves are right. In the Yuan dynasty they were often painted with only one brush stroke, no contour outlines or central rib. But there may be exceptions.

Pablo82 · Dec 21, 2019, 05:56:22

I'll follow your suggestion and look for someone expert enough to make an hand on inspection. I'll try also to find a Yuan BW with contours around the leaves and central rib, if something exists on the internet. Thank you!

peterp · Dec 21, 2019, 08:01:02

Just be aware that we always talk about Yuan BW wares made in Jingdezhen. There are some other BW wares of that dynasty made at Yuxi kiln (çŽ‰æºªçª¯) in Yunnan province, but you will recognize them as not being the same due to their yellow glaze color and different blue pigments used.

peterp · Dec 21, 2019, 13:07:55

Hi Pablo, leafing through one of my older books I found a pair of Gu vases very similar to yours. So they apparently do exist. Still, most items I found on the web look too new.
I found good pictures of want I consider authentic Yuan dynasty BW wares on a Chinese website. Please consult the link in the post of the "Additional Info" board.

Pablo82 · Dec 22, 2019, 05:43:29

Peter, the website with BW Yuan ware is amazing. I'd have never been able to find so many authentic items with Google, nor even by going in an asian museum. Thank you also for your warnings concerning the items offered online from China. I didn't imagine that the rules were so strict there today. I'll stay off, as I always did!