Song dynasty or Japanese.

Stan · Jun 25, 2019, 03:43:38

Hi Peter, I see stilt marks on the bottom and Im not sure song dynasty had a completely glazed bottom could you tell me what you think of this piece also I can not tell of the potters wheel is spinning to the right or left, right being Chinese, thanks Peter.

Stan · Jun 25, 2019, 04:01:29

Hi Peter, the gentleman that bought this is Chinese and dose not have internet, so I am posting for him, he said the guy he bought it from said he found it buried in china, he wrote in Chinese what he was told it is.

peterp · Jun 25, 2019, 07:44:47

Hi Stan,
The paper says "Henan Ru kiln, once found in an aracheological excavation".
Hope he did not pay too much. The item looks old, but it is difficult to tell from the picture if it is an authentic antique or a fake.
Unfortunately, the glazed bottom and stilt marks make it more likely a fake than something made in the Ming or Qing dynasties, as does the written note.
It can hardly be Ru. This would appear to be a white/whitish glaze, and Ru was never white. The color does not correspond.
Further, a real Ru item may be valued in a six or seven digit figure. I heard even a shard may be in the hundreds of dollars, and there may be fake shards too. Only a few times were real Ru items auctioned by Sothebys, and those were in the millions.
The number of known, authentic Ru items is very low. (Only a few weeks ago somebody mentioned for the first time that there are probably over 100; Sotheby's site mentions 75 and before that I heard something about 65).
Even the Ru kiln location is not known yet. That is because the area it was located in has been flooded by the Yellow River many times and everything is buried in a very deep silt layer.

I would think this would need a hands-on inspection to verify that it is antique. It seems to be a brush washer and looks quite heavy. If the glaze was viewed with a microscope it might be possible to tell if it can be from the Song dynasty or not.

Stan · Jun 25, 2019, 07:56:36

Thanks Peter, I did view with a microscope and I did not see any bubbles at all, so far all the celadon pieces that I have viewed with a microscope showed dead bubbles and not to see any was strange but I do not no anything about Ru also this is an oil lamp not a brush washer, you can see where the hole would allow oil into the tube at the bottom and the flame at the top, I thought that it was strange to see stilt marks on the bottom and some spiral cracks from the potters wheel only Im not sure if it is going left or right.

Stan · Jun 25, 2019, 08:13:04

Here is a photo showing the cracks, you can see them clearly on the left side.

Stan · Jun 25, 2019, 11:41:36

Wouldn't this make it a left hand potters wheel which would be Japanese, that would explain the stilts

peterp · Jun 25, 2019, 11:59:05

There are a few glazes without bubbles, but I doubt that this one would be one of them.
What is not clear from these pictures is whether the bottom is completely flat or if it is slightly deeper inside the tilt marks, and whether the bottom is fully glazed or not. If not, then this is likely not Chinese or a fake, because such tiny tilt marks are mainly found on fully glaze bottoms.
Ru ware is the top of the top among Chinese ceramics. Usually, when I hear people talk of Ru items I feel it is a waste of time listening to that, because it virtually impossible that we will ever see one, except in a museum, much less handle one.
tinyurl.com/y6967s9o

What do you mean with "cracks"? Is it the glaze crackles? If yes, that is not reliable enough for authenticating age alone. This can only be used together with other features. Crackling can be artificially created by opening the kiln door early during the cooling process. The glazes of the items inside will then crack one by one.
But, in fact many items may have a cracked glaze already when fresh out of the kiln, even in the past. We just do not see this until dirt has seeped into the crackles.

Further, the wheel turning direction is also just one of many factors. There are always exceptions from the rule. And with small crackles it is more difficult to decide the wheel direction.

Stan · Jun 25, 2019, 21:34:30

The bottom is completely flat and the inside of the tube is unglazed, he was told that it was buried but the glaze looks to clean to me have been buried, my opinion is a fake but I do not want to say that to him, I would rather have him take it to an expert on RU and find out for him self.

Stan · Jun 25, 2019, 21:44:29

Hi Peter, I was referring to the crackle with a subtle left hand spiral, you had mentioned before that the potters wheel in china turn clockwise and the ones from Japan turn counter clockwise. BTW the entire bottom is glazed.

peterp · Jun 26, 2019, 07:50:09

Just to clarify what a left hand spiral means.. the crackle lines show a trend from left (bottom) to right (top of item). That would be the regular Chinese way. If he believes it is Ru, then tell him that you cannot help. Mostly people who buy such items are convinced to a degree that they cannot listen to reason.
He will unlikely find a Ru expert, unless he can take it to Sotheby's HK. Most known Ru items are in the National Palace Museum, Taiwan, and lower numbers in other museums, mostly in China. Few are in private hands. Most museum or auction "experts" are never able to see one except from behind glass either.
Excavated items frequently show some soil sediments embedded in the pores, when viewed with a magnifier.

Open the pages from this search result: tinyurl.com/y5thhfqc
They all should have an "npm" in the URL, which means 'National Palace Museum'. I have a book showing Ru wares from the imperial collection. The collection having the most in one place. They all look similar as the ones at the links above.