Chinese or Japanese kraak

[haukech]

Dear All,
This piece was sold to me as Japanese, when comparing to other Kraak pieces I have, its true its lighter but I am not that sure  because of the production patterns. Thanks for your comments.

[Stan]

Japanese 20th century.

[peterp]

Hi Stan, probably 20th century indeed.
However, I doubt that this is Japanese, but maybe you know some source that indicates clearly such plates were made in Japan? I would be interested to know as I also have a large plate with such an underside. Compared to the late Ming ones the underside is revealing that it is probably not Ming but new, but up to now I thought it is rather Chinese new. 
The Japanese Kraak items (I have some) in my experience show either a slightly different design, or a slightly different blue tone with some purplish tint, and/or a different bottom. The latest made in Japan I know of are from the 19th century, according to Rinaldi's book on Kraak porcelain. The blue color has a purplish tint.

The decoration of this plate looks perfectly like late Ming, including the color, but the painted underside looks  new, and the base and foot rim are not quite showing the late Ming characteristics of such plates.
BTW, late Ming Kraak plates often show very short and barely visible chatter marks under the glaze, along the foot rim (only). The Japanese imitations I know often are overdoing this with long, regular chatter marks and too much kiln grit. The foot rim of plates of the Ming dynasty are usually slanted inwards, both the inner and outer rim faces, so that plates can be hooked on a finger.

The bottom of this plate is too pristine; the three marks in the center are odd, are they natural?

[Stan]

Hi Peter, the stilt marks on the bottom were what I was basing it as being Japanese and the missing age signs.

[peterp]

I thought it would be that, what I am wondering if this really are stilt marks. They are all protruding. With stilt marks there should be some unglazed clay. I just thought it odd that there are three of them, all in the center. Maybe if these could be enlarged we may see if they are. Of course I agree with you that it is Japanese, if they are. One of mine looks the same underneath with no stilt marks, and it looks new.

[Stan]

I have seen a few plates with this pattern of 3 stilts esp. on Awaji almost all my pieces have three stilt marks like this, I think it was mid to late Meiji that you see it, that would also explain the 20th century foot rim.

[peterp]

Thanks, Stan. That gives me a starting point for research. You don't mean that you have seen the Kraak pattern on those kiln items though, do you? Do you know a kiln called Ojiyama (in Hyogo prefecture), because that appears to have made the Kraak pattern, but the items I have seen have no stilts, only excessive chatter marks.

[Stan]

Sorry Peter, Awaji was just an example of the pattern, the placement of the stilts, After the fall of the Ming Dynasty in 1644, I know for sure that there were Kilns in Arita Japan that were copying the Kraak pattern, that would have been the Saga Perfecture, from what I understand they were copied in several kilns.

[haukech]

Dear Stan, Peterp,
Here a detail of the 3 points. I did not dear to scratch it or similar.

[peterp]

Indeed stilt marks. That settles it - Japanese.

[haukech]

From the beggining I was more convinced about the color being lighter that it would be not Chinese Kraak but its very interesting all details you and Stan brought to the discussion. I would only have a last doubt, about timing in 20 c
Was this produced earlier than 1950 or later?

[Stan]

My guess is 1st quarter of the 20th century.