Koi plate

[konniela]

Hello to all,

this plate makes no sense to me. It looks japanese to me, but I can not find out, if the qianlong mark (when it is) was used in Japan.

Thanks

[Stan]

Hi Konniela, I sure would like to see the whole plate, top and bottom and some close up photo's of the decoration, concerning the mark, the most common was the Chenghua mark, I have seen in books a Kangxi and a Qianlong mark but the Qianlong mark in my book is shown in a Zhuanshu script not the six character mark.

[peterp]

While the rim decoration is of Chinese origin, the detailed painting of the carp is not typical for traditional Chinese. And, the ring drawn just inside the foot rim is normally a Japanese feature.
And, as Stan already detected, something is wrong with the mark. The first character of the mark is written ?  instead of  ?? also a feature that is found on Japanese porcelain items sporting Chinese marks not infrequently. I do not know why they did this, but this is not correct in Chinese. (It shouldn't be in Japanese either, at least not in modern Japanese.) The meaning of the character is slightly different because of that little dot. 

[konniela]

I have only these two more photos.

When I remember right, the dot changes the meaning from great to greatest. 

[peterp]

In Chinese the character reads 'tai' and changes the following term to the meaning of "too" (e.g. too much, too big, etc.). In Japanese the character with the dot mainly means 'fat, thick'.

[Stan]

I think the Great Character is OK, meaning greatest, this appears to be the way it was written on Old Japan Porcelain, my concern is the blue color, the presence of rust or very small blisters in the darker blue areas seems to be missing, they might be their I can't see them, it they are not their this is 20th century, wall hangers like these were used 100 years ago but the authentic ones leave a rust mark on the plate and the hangers them selves would have rust as well this one looks recent in my opinion.

[konniela]

I know, it is difficult without closeup photos, but this is all I have right now.
It is only a feeling, but I think this plate is not so old as the mark will tell. 

Thanks once more

[peterp]

Stan, the explanation for the dot character is not that simple, I'm afraid. Whatever the reason for the use of the dot character was, it is seemingly withlimited to Ming and Qing marks. Too many to appear it to be accidental, but the normal writing was used too.

An explanation I would find easier to accept would be that they wanted to show that it was not a real  Chinese made item despite the mark. But who knows...there are sometimes wrong character strokes in mark characters even on real Chinese porcelain. Just not this specific character, usually. 
Oh my... I did not intend to start looking into Japanese porcelain marks; the Chinese ones are complex enough.  :-)

[Stan]

Yea, thanks for the educational reply, I have several plates that look old and have the Chenghua mark and the dote is in the middle of bottom of the Great mark but then that is Ming. In my books on Japanese marks it shows it that way on the examples they show.

[peterp]

I see the dot mostly on Ming marked items of Japanese porcelain, but also do not remember seeing a Qing mark on Japanese porcelain. You may have more opportunities to encounter this. My comments are mainly based on a linguistic view.
Anyway, this mark is more than strange. For example the ? (qian) character of Qianlong should not have a dot on the right side, and the character for year (?) is written with horizontal strokes only, something that should not have been written this way and in this time.

[Stan]

Then I am in good company, because I have never, until now seen such a mark on Japanese porcelain, there is one in my book for old Japan porcelain but it is written in Zhuanshu Script.
It sounds like whoever wrote the mark did not have a good knowledge of Chinese or Japanese writing, thanks Peter for your insight, very helpful.

[konniela]

Always a pleasure