Oh Oh Ming ??

[konniela]

Hello everybody,

I have a high respect for real ming, may be because there are realy a lot of fakes on road.

I have seen this large plate (35 cm), but I am not sure. These two photos are all right now and not the best (I asked the dealer, the real colour is blue, not grey).

I have seen similar pieces,  but with more details in decoration.

I am interested in a piece with an old repair like this, but  it must be old.

What is your opinion.

Thanks to all

[peterp]

Three things. Late Ming Kraak porcelain has gloss and is more blue. The foot rim of late Ming plates should be slightly slanted inward, both on the inside and outside of the rim. The underside decoration looks too crude. Kraak plates were manufactured at Jingdezhen. This foot rim either means it was made at Dehua kiln, Fujian province, or is later (not Ming). You should be able to get good Ming Kraak easily.
I refer you to mingwrecks.com for reference on the look of Kraak wares.

[konniela]

Thanks for these realy helpful infomations.

I was more interested on that old repair. You are right, the quality is realy poor, not only the underside. But the real colour is dark blue (the dealer says).

Do you think, it can be from 18.century ? May be export to other regions in Asia ?

[peterp]

Kraak was specifically made for export to the west, not for SE Asia, although it passed through there because the biggest exporter in those times were first the Portuguese, and later the Dutch VOC. This is not the blue color normal Kraak made in JDZ have. Some are more black in color, but they are all not like this one. This color would probably only be possible if from a shipwreck.  According to the book of Rinaldi the Kraak pattern was imitated by Japan, Persia, etc. and several European countries. But the backside looks Chinese, but is simply too crude. Apart from JDZ some Zhangzhou (Swatow) wares also have the pattern, but the foot rim and base are not right for Zhangzhou either.

Is there an explanation for the staple on the foot rim at about ten o'clock?  One thing more to consider, I do not know how European staple repairs look, but if it is Chinese it is odd. There are very few Kraak items extant in China, apart from Kiln shards, and a few from tombs, because virtually all of this pattern was exported.

I cannot tell from when or where this is, but not late Ming Kraak porcelain from JDZ. If there are no genuine signs that it is from a shipwreck, then there is a good chance this is a fake. The decoration might have been added to an old white plate.

[Rec]

It looks faiance to me. If it's faiance than probably Dutch blue or n imitation of
Dutch blue kraakware

[Adriano]

I agree with Rec: it seems to be faience.
Where the enamel (it looks like zinc enamel) is damaged, we can see the brown pottery below.
Probably it is not Chinese, but European production: normally Dutch pottery is of higher quality.
Can we call it Chinoiserie?

[peterp]

> Can we call it Chinoiserie?
Probably.
Thanks for posting this. According to the book by Rinaldi apart from Japan and Persia Portugal, England, the Netherlands and Germany also made items with the Kraak pattern.