Trinket Box

[kardinalisimo]

Recent fake or antique?
Thanks

[peterp]

Bottom and decoration all wrong for Ming dynasty. There is a Ming Wanli mark, but the yellow and green clouds appear to be on-glaze fencai decoration which did not exist then, neither did the orange color. In my opinion this is a fake.

[kardinalisimo]

Everything is on glaze besides the blue. The tail tips are fat so I did not think of Ming at all but I did not know what the mark reads.
Peter, if an older reign mark is used does it mean it is fake or could be late Qing/Republic?

[peterp]

Chinese porcelain from the late Qing dynasty or republic usually does not use apocryphal Ming Wanli marks. They would probably use an apocryphal Qianlong or Kangxi mark or another mark type, not a reign mark. I do not think this is old.

[kardinalisimo]

Peter, how does the wucai/doucai overglaze enamels differ from the fencai ones? Like different shades, harder and transulent?

[peterp]

http://www.chinese-antique-porcelain.com/antique-china-categories.html
http://www.chinese-antique-porcelain.com/decoration-types.html

[kardinalisimo]

Thanks. So, basically the colors are brighter and stronger.
What do you mean by the orange( iron red) did  not exist during Wanli?
A shade of iron red from Jiajing:
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/fine-chinese-ceramics-works-of-art-n09116/lot.243.html

[Stan]

Hi Perter and Kardenalisimo, the double swirls around the lid would make it a later item, however I have seen double swirl decoration that recently sold at Christies for top dollar, and they said early Qing, I believe that it sold in 2014, could they be wrong about the double swirls and the period?

[kardinalisimo]

Stan, what do you mean by double swirls? The greek key pattern?
I think is some of your recent posts( or someone elses) Peter explained that if the keys are in pairs that would indicate later piece. But he also said that this is how the keys were painted during Ming.
Maybe Peter knows if thare are seen on early Qing as well.

[peterp]

Normally, Ming is pairs of them, during Qing they were continuous, all connected, but in about the Guangxu reign multi-colored ones appeared, They are in pairs again,probably for separation of colors.
I do not know enough about the patterns used on imperial porcelain. I only know some that do not appear on minyao porcelain at all. The palace kept many decorations and styles away from the public - intentionally.
Now to the iron red. The link you provided shows the fish in a way that is not possible in normal Wucai. You will see that the base color is yellow, then a thinned down red layer was added to create the orange color, while contours and outlines may be real iron red. Please understand that this is imperial ware, which means that much more attention to detail was given to decoration than a private kiln would be able to. With wucai there is normally no 3D appearance, the colors are flat, and real Ming red is known for its dark, non reflecting appearance.
In contrast, the lines of the dragon on your item are drawn in orange color, which hardly could be iron red in that sence. That type of orange was only appearing later. Further, the dragon seems to be fencai color, as are the yellow and green clouds. And did you note that the clouds look like those of the post-Qing era?
Better don't get carried away, Ming wucai items are not easy to find. And they are expensive.

Wucai has another name, that is "hard" color decoration, - the depth of color is flat and even, always of the same hue or intensity, while the "soft" Fencai colors do have shades. That lies in the nature of the colors and their application method.

[peterp]

Basically, when we talk about era-related "rules" of some decorations, there may be exceptions, as later artisans may have copied earlier patterns, etc. But, don't fall into the trap to always believe your items are exceptions to the rule. It is much more likely that you got a later fake, and the fakers did not know or pay attention to what was the rule in a certain era, ending up with a mix of different eras on the same object.
And, some imperial items specifically and systematically reproduced decorations of earlier eras for the delight of the palace.

[kardinalisimo]

Thanks Peter. You dropped some great information.
After looking at more examples the Ming red seems to be very dark.  You are right about the fish, it was done with yellow. I am also glad I learnt about  the paints being flat as opposed to the more raised ones in the fencai.
I found two other similar boxes, both later periods and much better quality than mine.
www.bonhams.com/auctions/18975/lot/132/

www.arcimboldo.cz/en/auctions/asian-works-of-art-4/katalog/395/a-wucai-plum-blossom-shaped-lidded-box/

[Stan]

Hi Perter, thanks for the lesson, there are so many patterns and colors to learn, it can be confusing sometimes. thanks again, Stan.

[peterp]

Stan, you are welcome. As we are at this, here is something specifically for you.
In the Yuan dynasty the whirls were not connected, each was depicted individually. I don't think I have ever seen this on Ming or later porcelain, except on obvious fakes made in modern times, trying to imitate Yuan B/W.

[Stan]

That is awesome Peter, thanks, for the good information.