Blue vase with imperial dragong decoration

[hoogenbosch67]

Any ideas?

thank you Jan

[hoogenbosch67]

extra photos

[hoogenbosch67]

extra photos

[bokaba]

New item

[heavenguy]

yep, very very new.

[Stan]

I wonder if this could be Japanese, they did a lot of lacquer ware like this, but being fairly recent made I do not know if the Chinese were doing these kind of lacquer finishes.

[heavenguy]

Hey Stan,


I'm not really sure if I'm seeing right but isn't the inside of the bottle like sprayed with paint?

[peterp]

The bottom would not be right for the Qing dynasty. The blue color and gilt both are not right either. They look as if they were not fired at all, or at least only at a very low temperature. The colors would not be matte like this of fired, and there would be a vitreous layer; I can see none. There should be some gloss. The tail of the dragon indicates that the dragon it is on the later side. The red color is not a mineral pigment. All of this looks like a modern product.

[Stan]

Hi Heavenguy, it dose look like it was sprayed in side, but the dull black on the outside looks similar to Japanese porcelain with a black lacquer finish, I have two Fukagawa vases that have this finish on porcelain they are 19th century though, I am not saying this one is old, it is clearly modern, but did the Chinese use this type of finish?

[peterp]

You cannot rely on whether or not a monochrome glaze was sprayed for deciding if it is new or old. Monochrome glazes were sprayed since the Ming dynasty, not with pressurized air but by mouth.
Look at the shape of the vase mouth. The top is inwards bent. If that is not a metal fitting then this is further proof that it is not traditional Chinese.
Stan, I do not know anything about lacquer finishes on porcelain. Lacquer was used mainly on wood, paper/cardboard, brass and cloth. There is basically no reason to use it on ceramics, because the fired glaze would be more endurable and harder than any lacquer, and the number of colors or paints available would be more abundant. I would be interested in seeing anything made that way, even if it is Japanese.  If you mean tree lacquer, that would have gloss too, usually; at least unless it was treated somehow.

There are several questions: is this ceramic at all? Why are the colors so dull. The painting looks as if it is covering something, or was never exposed to high temperatures. Also, gilt usually does not look this way if it has been fired.
There are too many possibilities. I would suggest to hoogenbosch to first confirm the nature of the whole thing. Only someone having access to the item can do that.
The following should be clarified:
- are there any metal fittings attached at the top and/or bottom rims?
- use the needle test to check if the surface of the blue color is hard (its surface should have a consistency similar to glass if this is a fired glaze)
- does the surface feel cold to the touch? (it should if it is glazed ceramic material, other materials will feel warmer, except stone, glass, etc.)
- is the white color on the bottom covering the dirt of the foot rim, or vice versa? To me the contrast of the white bottom to such a dirty rim is not looking natural. There should be some production or age signs along the edge of the white area within the foot rim. A rim does not get that way on its own.

Again, the color decoration looks as if was not fired after being painted or decorated. It might be ceramic but the whole decoration might be over-painting something pre-existing. We should first clarify that.

How about a close-up picture of the base?

[hoogenbosch67]

Hello Peter, Stan and others,

Thanks for all the responses. I didnt expect a discussion like this about the vase. Exactly as you say I had also several doubts about it even if the vase was chinese or japanese. My first idea was also  a modern vase but after investigating it better I had no idea anymore.

About your questions:

Is this ceramic at all? Yes but its soft. I think I could make a scratch with a needle in the bottom. About the bottom and the rim. This was covered by a protection rubber. I removed this to see if there were any marks. The rim (gray) is still covered with some of the  gray glue used to connect the protection rubber.

Why are the colors so dull?
Its a deep blue color (non glazed).

The painting looks as if it is covering something, or was never exposed to high temperatures. Gilt does not look this way if it has been fired.
The dragons are not a painting but they are in relief, they are also not gilded but painted with gold color paint, same color as the top and bottom, not very well done

Are there any metal fittings attached at the top and/or bottom rims? No its only simply painted in gold looking colour

Use the needle test to check if the surface of the blue color is hard (its surface should have a consistency similar to glass if this is a fired glaze)
Its not glazed, there are some very small pitches

Does the surface feel cold to the touch? (it should if it is glazed ceramic material, other materials will feel warmer, except stone, glass, etc.) No

Is the white color on the bottom covering the dirt of the foot rim, or vice versa? To me the contrast of the white bottom to such a dirty rim is not looking natural. About the bottom and the rim. This was covered by a protection rubber. I removed this to see if there were any marks. The rim (gray) is still covered with some of the  gray glue used to connect the protection rubber.

There should be some production or age signs along the edge of the white area within the foot rim. A rim does not get that way on its own. The bottom looks clearly new to me

Again, the color decoration looks as if was not fired after being painted or decorated. It might be ceramic but the whole decoration might be over-painting something pre-existing. We should first clarify that. What seems strange to me is what color was done first. You would say a blue spray at first than a dark blue painting than gold and red. But if you look at the dragons there are some points where the dark blue colour is over the gold color

I will attach new pictures. The foot is more yellow then on the picture and the blue colour is more dark dull blue (se different pictures)

Thank you all for this discussion

[hoogenbosch67]

Extra photos - see reply answers downstairs. Thank you Jan

[hoogenbosch67]

Extra photos - see reply answers downstairs. Thank you Jan

[hoogenbosch67]

Extra photos - see reply answers downstairs. Thank you Jan

[hoogenbosch67]

Extra photos - see reply answers downstairs. Thank you Jan