Vase Guangxu

[konniela]

Hello again,

I have an offer, to get this vase very cheap (because it is damaged).  After my research it is a guangxu vase, may be around 1909. Probable not rare.  I have read, that the birds symbolize wealth and longevity, you can never have enough of it.

Can you confirm it ?

[peterp]

It appears to be xinhai year, that would be 1911. As there is no closeup of the decoration it is difficult to tell whether it is qianjiang or the newer painting colors. This subject was made in both.

[konniela]

One closeup I have.

[peterp]

This could still be qianjiang, at least it is not the new enamels that became popular at this time. BTW, 1911 would the 3rd year of Xuantong. The last year of the Chinese empire.

[peterp]

To Hmm:
The character ? was used here too. See ?? ... handwriting after all ...

[konniela]

May be one of the last pieces of the chinese empire, nice idea to me.  I think, this vase want to come to me. You can get less for a few euros. 

Thank you

[Hmm]

Hmm..  According to this dictionary, ?'s origin is the super cursive simplification of ?.  www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E5%A4%B4

A wikitionary entry says "Simplified from ?. From the cursive form, with ? into ? and ? into ?.", although looking under www.shufazidian.com/, I don't see any examples of this super cursive simplified version. 

[Hmm]

I'm still not entirely convinced that ? was used before the 50s...  But is ????? a particular style of painting, where they use birds and flowers?  Seems searching that phrase comes up with some similar pieces, although tou2 is written in the traditional way.

[peterp]

Hi Hmm, this bird and flower theme appears  on many qianjiang and new enamel color items made in the late Guangxu to early republic period. But they do not all have the same text. "?????" is just another auspicious text among many others that are added to some painted decorations. Depends on the artisan, probably.
What is notable is that while during most of the Qing dynasty the Guangeti variation of Kaiti characters was used for writing on porcelain, the qianjiang and later items often had writing that was not the norm until then, some reminiscent of the caoti (??) writing, but often they seem to be just difficult to read handwriting. I checked the Kangxi dictionary and there was no version of this character. However, the explanations I read about this character finally all mentioned what is stated here as the best explanation, namely that the character likely derived from caoti: www.zhihu.com/question/24660661

I really hope you do not doubt the age of these items.They are above doubt. Some age signs are just impossible to fake, especially when it comes to underglaze blue. :-)

[Hmm]

The pieces do look old.  I just can't/couldn't understand the use of the ? character.  I guess that's what was throwing me off.  But yes, ??, the character does have the ? part.  E.g. this character was written during the Yuan dynasty. 
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