Kangxi bowl?

[Pablo82]

Hello members,

Please your opinion on this bowl, could it be Kangxi?

Thank you very much in advance.

[Pablo82]

More photos

[peterp]

My first impression was that it is Japanese. The rim shape is also a bit too much off the Chinese standard. Couldn't tell what this is from these pictures.

[Stan]

Hi Peter, that was my first impression to " Japanese " the shape and color would be wright for Japanese, but like you say a photo needs to be taken of the front of the bowl to see the whole shape and decoration.

[Pablo82]

Hi Peter and Stan,
Thank you for your answers, I post three more photos of the dish. Diam. cm. 13,50.

[Pablo82]

Last photo

[peterp]

Doubts remain. The foot rim seems to be straight up, and this would mean it is at least 19th century or later, if it is Chinese. The different tones (intensity) of blue would correspond to Kangxi, and the painting style looks Chinese too, if viewed in detail, though, as does the subject, a phoenix and birds.

I think the main reason for our doubts is the Kangxi type mark. It is not one of the spurious Kangxi marks used in the Guangxu reign, or in Japan, that is. The underside decoration does exist in 18th century porcelain, but it does not seem to be related to the top decoration.
However, I consider the foot rim shape decisive. Also, there is another Kangxi feature missing in the decoration. The peony does not have the tentacle-like attachments on top, as they often do in Kangxi era decorations (only). You will have to wait and see if something similar comes around for comparison.

[Stan]

Hi Peter, in my Japanese book of marks it has maker marks in double blue line circles, one of them resembles this mark, the book is vague though, they say Makers Mark, Painted in blue upon examples of old Japan in the Dresden collection.

[peterp]

Thanks for the information, Stan. I have seen hundreds or Chinese marks on Japanese items, but not this one. Mostly they were Ming marks. If it indeed was used, then I would lean toward Japanese with this item.

[Stan]

Hi Peter and Pablo, I do not want to mislead by any means as you well know my knowledge to the Chinese and Japanese writing is limited although I am always learning, here are some of the examples given for Old Japan blue and white makers marks, notice #50 looks similar, these came from examples from the Dresden collection, there are several other, Chinese marks Ming and Qianlong marks that were used.

[Pablo82]

Hi Peter and Stan,

Peter, the foot rim appears sraight in the inner side but definitlely slanted in the outer one. The wide-angle of the smartphone that I used to take the pictures creates a fish-eye distortion, bending outward the vertical surfaces of the image. I'll look for a reflex to post better photos.

Stan, searching on the Internet I found a reliable dealer (I don't know if I can post his name here) who sells a very similar saucer, identical in shape and dimensions, as chinese Kangxi. In his detailed description of the item he writes: "To this day there are 16 identically shaped and decorated teacups and saucers in the Hlubok? Castle (Prague) collection with this ornamentation, so it can be assumed that the nobility used this crockery, especially on festive occasions. The decoration represents the classic type abundantly used towards the end of the Kangxi period. Similar cups with phoenix or crane motifs were also found during the archaeological exploration of the shipwrecked Chinese junk known as the Ca Mau (1725). (Amsterdam 2007, pp.116-117) & (Suchomel 2015, p.224).
For an identically shaped and decorated teacup and saucer, please see:
300 Treasures, (F. Suchomel, Academy of Arts, Architecture and Design in Prague, Prague, 2015), p.224, cat. 105".

[MythicalFoxes]

this mark might be a "shop mark". i unfortunately have very little information about these marks. and couldn't find anything about it at the moment. but if you google something like chinese porcelain shop mark or kangxi period shop mark. you will see similar marks. i do not know if these kind of marks were used during the kangxi period.

[peterp]

No it is not a shop mark. During the Kangxi reign lots of similar marks were used. It is just that these mostly were not used afterwards.
And Pablo, you could check out export wares, but the decorations are easily copied, so you should make sure that the blue color is right for the period. That dealer's saucer is authentic and of the period, in my view. You could even say typical.
However, if you compare the white glaze and blue color of your item to theirs the question arises if it really is Kangxi. The blue color of yours is not easily found on export wares, but as the pigments used should be similar as those on other wares, or at least be in the range of hues that were available then. Now the blue looks more like 20th century Chinese or 19th century Japanese pigment. And some details are more detailed as was common on Kangxi export. So why is that?
And again, this sort of plate rim shape (underneath) was not common at any time in the Kangxi dynasty.  Exceptions do happen, however. It may take some time and effort to verify this.

PS: Many images show items in different color hues because of improper light conditions. You better check on that first. We have no way to know, in case the real colors are diferent.

[Pablo82]

Thank you for your answer and analysis. I took one more photo under different light conditions.