Food for thought - Faking in China

peterp · Nov 13, 2016, 15:41:04

http://tinyurl.com/zywjyge

Stan · Nov 14, 2016, 01:43:47

Good video, even the fakes are going up in value, I guess my stuff has increased in value to, just kidding.

heavenguy · Nov 14, 2016, 06:38:16

It is a good video. I have seen this video like 5 times. After watching this again, the only thing that gives me some type of relief is that even experts have trouble with fakes. I don't know if it is a good thing or a bad thing.

peterp · Nov 14, 2016, 07:47:32

It just tells us that we can not trust what we see. We have to analyze everything, as authentic items are only drops in a sea of fakes, today.
To start with, it is easier to depend on early export porcelain for authentic items, as those made in earlier times are less likely to be fakes.
It is no good, of course. Fakes were always made, but not in such quantities as today. That started only after China opened up to international trade and they became aware of the huge markets abroad for these wares. So, likely in about the 1980s or later would have been the beginning of the wave of fakes we see today. Before that they had no incentives, as prices inside China were too low.

Keeping alert is all that we can do now...

billbilly · Nov 18, 2016, 18:05:29

There was time in American when decorating your house with Chinese antiques was considered unpatriotic if you're not Chinese. When Nixon went to China the attitude changed. Chinese porcelains were cheap before the mid 70s and mostly ignored by Americans. I've given away many antique porcelains through the years. Ivory netsukes were the objects to collect before the 1980s.

Stan · Nov 19, 2016, 01:18:55

Hi Billbilly, your showing your age, way back then I was a young teenager and Bruce Lee was my idle, a nice porcelain dragon vase would have been cool.

billbilly · Nov 19, 2016, 06:53:03

I stopped hiding my age a long time ago, hehehe.

Teunis van Eijk · Nov 21, 2016, 00:44:52

Very nice video. Can't trust anything anymore. Heard about money laundring at auction houses too. Rich Chinese buy at auction houses for enormous amounts and get their money out of the country. Later they get most of it back at a foreign bankaccount and just pay a percentage to the auction house. No idea if this is true or false.

Regards,
Teunis

billbilly · Nov 21, 2016, 05:02:00

I've heard that dumb rumor five years ago, but don't you think the owner would make a big stink if a Chinese bidder were to bow out from paying? No one would be able to escape the lightning speed of bad news on the net. Everyone is greedy in this market. It's a very competitive world and no one wants to destroy their chic reputation. Exclusive auction houses require you to have money set aside in your bank account for expensive pieces. What does the Chinese government do with people who cross them in terms of big money?

peterp · Nov 21, 2016, 09:42:24

I haven't heard anything of international money laundering, but what I heard is working domestically. You should be aware that corruption (kickbacks, bribes, etc.) is a normal problem in Chinese society. As it might be detected if some illegal payouts were made, the person who is to get some illegal payment is putting up a cheap or fake antique for auction, while the side that is to pay out the bribe, kickback or whatsoever, pays the required sum for it.
They are feigning a real auction exchange, but it is all about the money transfer. It is difficult to prove that the buyer knew that there was a problem with that antique or that the seller knew in advance who would get the item. The buyer has made the illegal payment for an auction item, while the seller has earned seemingly legal auction money. The authorities have more difficulties tracking this payment, as the seller could just claim to have bought it from a vendor at one of the "antique" markets. And the money the buyer has received is now laundered, as it is obtained via a legal auction.

However, I have heard something that China is trying to crack down on this.

heavenguy · Nov 21, 2016, 11:18:34

I remember seen a Youtube Video from a person who was arguing that a mayor auction house didn't want to auction his Celadon collection for really dumb reasons. The auction house had auction similar pieces before for ten of thousands of dollars and he said, well i got a bunch of those. It was a win win situation, but still they would't take his collection. Since there is a lot of rich kids leaving China for X reason, and since China restricts the amount of money they can get out of the country, I guess they need a way to get those millions of dollars out of China. I guess is more difficult to hide millions of dollars than a single porcelain bowl that you can hide on your pocket. but that's just me saying.

billbilly · Nov 21, 2016, 14:36:01

Teunis is confusing the corrupt practice of "guanxi".

Teunis van Eijk · Nov 21, 2016, 18:16:13

I have seen the same video Heavenguy is referring to and have recently visited and also send numerous pictures of a collection of a friend of mine to an auction house which they are not willing to put it at auction. I am not an expert but to me these items are genuine pieces. We actually took a Coral red bamboo bowl with us and the lady looked at it for 5 seconds and said it was not suitable for auction. Than we showed her the taxation report from a competitor that valued the piece at ? 80.000,- and she answered. "that's their opinion". Furthermore anything I offer them is refused because it does not reach their lowest valuation of ? 3.000,- whilst I see a lot of items being sold and valued for a lot less.