Large Chinese porcelain plaque

[Stan]

Hi Peter, this is a large porcelain plaque, came from the same Lake Oswego estate, the hight is 51.1 cm and the length is 78.7 please let me know what you think and how old do you think it is, I will post 14 photo's, thanks for your expertise.

[Stan]

Here are more photo's to view.

[Stan]

Here are more photo's for viewing.

[Stan]

last set of photo's to view, thanks for your help.

[peterp]

Hi Stan,
The colors can not be anything else than 20th century, I think at least second, perhaps later, despite the dragon looking more like early Qing or Ming, and despite the Kangxi mark.
I can give you a hint in view to size. I was told that the size of plaques of the Qing dynasty were hardly more than 20-30 cm in either decoration. The reason is simply that at the time of the 'late' Qing dynasty it was technically difficult to make/fire large flat porcelain objects. Thus any plaque which is larger is unlikely to be made in the 19th century.

[Stan]

Thanks Peter.

[Stan]

Hi Peter, something has been bothering me about this plaque, I almost did not buy it because of it, in the center of the plaque from top down, the lines do not line up almost like transfer ware, however I can tell that it is all hand drawn and painted, after talking to you I was looking at it  and I could see a slight variance in the center, this was two plaques that were put together and then drawn while they were together and then fired separately and joined together at one point, have you ever heard of such a thing? here is some pictures showing  the area's that don't line up and the center dragon where it looks like it was redone.

[Stan]

Also I forgot to mention that the red is much darker than these pictures, it is an iron red, for some reason they come out much brighter, than they are.

[peterp]

No Stan, I have never heard of something like this. Technically it might be possible, but fitting two items together would require a refiring using glaze as the glue. But it is a risky business because separately fired items can easily result in minor variations of color, etc. due to different temperature conditions in the kiln. I would imagine that if they would try to do that, they would rather do it in three parts than in the middle. I would rather think it possible that there was a break, and instead of discarding it the plaque might have been mended. It would take a look at the back to tell more about this or the period. But I do not recommend dismantling it. You might be breaking it by accident. Speaking of this, could the warping of a wooden frame break the porcelain? Depends probably on the wood. Some hardwoods would probably do that, like camphor, for example. The wood may also give a hint about age, but it could also have been replaced later.
To be clear, it is not just some individual colors that make me think 20th century, it is also the type of color combination. Red is usually not that prominent except in monochromes, in older wares.

I got a pair of small plaques (late Qing or early republic, if genuine) inserted in wooden wall decorations. The porcelain looks perfectly old, but when I removed it from the frame the back make it at once clear that it was a later copy. The wood looks older.

[Qst42know]

Patterns could have been used supplying critical locations with out being full color pallet transferware.

[Qst42know]

It looks to me that patterns were joined not pottery.

[Stan]

Hi Peter, and Qst42know, this is hand drawn, I can tell hand drawn from transfer, even the lines that do not line up and  the lines to try to match it are all hand drawn, and it looks like the same hand that drew the plaques is the same hand that filled in the lines, there are areas in the center that make it obvious that it was made in two sections, Peter you are right about the wood, it is a hard wood, Im not sure what type but there are already areas in the plaque where it looks stressed out, if the plaque was loose in the frame I would be willing to take it out, but it does not move at all, so there is no room for error, but it looks to me like the frame has shrank considerably from the time it was put in this frame, I also collect antique furniture and one thing I always look for in antique furniture is shrinkage, I also am aware that the Chinese are masters at faking antique furniture as well, but this looks authentic, I think the porcelain is older that the frame.