Blue Porcelain, Are Those Genuine Marks?

[kardinalisimo]

I was checking out today a local Asian import shop. As you can expect almost everything was fake and made to look old. But I came across on a bowl and a plate with a marks that I've never seen before.
Are these authentic ones or made up? If real, from what period?
Thanks

[Stan]

The mark looks like some kind of makers mark, but I have never seen one that looks like that before lets see what Peter says. On the plate it looks like someone added dirt to make it look older, if the dirt washes off and there are no age signs it is probably newer, the bowl looks good to me maybe mid 19th century.

[kardinalisimo]

I was more interested in the bowl but accidently saw that the dish had similar mark and took few photos. Plus, the quality of the bowl appears to be better to my eyes. As I said earlier, majority, if not all, of the items in the shop were imported fake pieces with too much dirt, firing flaws and rust. So, I hope the rust is natural. As far as the age signs I saw so many pieces made yesterday but looking hundreds of years old. So, that can be faked too.  I don't know how to explain it but somehow when you hold a real piece in your hands, it feels different. Nice and smooth.

[Stan]

I agree there is nothing like a hands on inspection, once you handle the real thing, there nothing like it, the jade shine and  feel  and weight is hard to fake.

[shelley Kong]

The way the dragon is painted looks new. Also there are too many rust spots. I am saying this after learning from Peter on this forum and hope he doesn't think I am too bad a pupil.

[Stan]

Hi Shelley, Im sure Peter would approve of your learning, me Im not so sure, you are right the dragon looks tame compared to the traditional ones, and to see a similar mark on the plate makes me suspicious of the bowl, I know that fakers will take an old bowl or vase and add decoration to try and it make it appear more valuable.

[kardinalisimo]

I know that Peter always advice to pay attention to the scale, head, claws and tail of the dragon but what are the characteristics of the different Dynasties? The dragons in the Ming were more fierce but what about the other parts of the body?
Probably both pieces are fake but the mark on the bowl looks somehow better made than the dish.
What can you tell me about the double circles? Them being close to the rim rather than the center is not a good sign, is it?
I am also consern about the too many rust spots.

[peterp]

Both items seem to have a Japanese style decoration. The marks look like imitations of Chinese pictorial marks used in the Yongzheng reign. But the look stiff. The actual marks are often not square and have no such regular lines, as they are completely hand drawn.
As Shelley said, the dragon is a problem. It looks like a thick, fat worm with a round tail tail tip that would indicate late Qing, but the exterior decoration of the bowl looks Japanese, as does the plate.

[kardinalisimo]

Thanks for all the replies.
I like that ' thick fat worm '.