Chinese Ming or Qing Blue White Dragon Lotus Charger

lauren · Aug 01, 2015, 22:25:12

Hello,
Could someone please help me understand what I inherited here? Any ideas on wholesale vs retail value? I could really use some help.
Regards,
Lauren

lauren · Aug 01, 2015, 22:27:59

here is another pic

lauren · Aug 01, 2015, 22:39:15

sorry here is the last pic. I could not figure how to put all three in one post! grrrrr

peterp · Aug 02, 2015, 08:28:21

That is a fake plate that is easily recognizable as such. It contains elements that are mixing at least two dynasties. The painting style and blue color are not of those periods, but of a more recent time.

lauren · Aug 02, 2015, 09:55:22

Thank you very much Peter. Do you think it is late Qing 19th century or Modern era?
Regards,
Lauren

peterp · Aug 02, 2015, 11:05:41

20th century, probably, but on the later side. Earlier fakes look more convincing. This purely judging by the type of fakes that is on the market now.

lauren · Aug 02, 2015, 18:02:07

Very much appreciated, Peter. Any chance you could please explain the techniques they use to make fakes so deceptive for the layman? I see they have added some agent to create what appears to be rust stains and craqueleur. I did notice the color of the clay was strange compared to others I have seen on some other exemplars that I assumed were authentic based on high recognized auction prices.
Regards,
Lauren

peterp · Aug 03, 2015, 06:38:37

The blue is too bright. But the dragon looks ridiculous. It should look fierce. I have been asking myself whether this was made in China at all...

lauren · Aug 03, 2015, 08:40:20

OK but the clay has rust marks and rust imbedded internally within the clay. Forensically, how do you think they caused the rust to form within the clay? Also the craqueleur is scattered and within the clay not a crackle glaze. How did they do that? Any thoughts?

peterp · Aug 03, 2015, 12:30:28

I did not even closely look at the porcelain body, actually. The decoration and blue color are all wrong.
If you see natural crackles below the glaze, it could be that an old, plain body was used (read the section on fakes, please), which then was newly painted and overglazed.
For us a later decoration is just another type of fake. For example, if the porcelain body was originally made in the Qing dynasty, but then it was overpainted/re-decorated in the last few decades, the actual age is just that of the last decoration. So, even if the body was 200 years old, an item that was repainted/over-painted last year has just that age. I do not recommend to buy such items. They have no collecting value whatsoever...

That there are crackles in the clay is a misconception. The clay body never develops crazing, only the glaze does!
If you cannot feel the crackles with a needle, on the surface, then it means that an already crackled body was glazed again after the crackles developed. This usually means that an item was redecorated at a later time. I suggest to search the main site for "crackles"; there is more information on that.
So, what you think is crackles in the clay body is most likely crackling of the original glaze. If it was overglazed, then the crackles will be covered by the new glaze.

Remark:
It must be mentioned, however, that I do not know if such a second glaze layer can be made to develop crackles artificially, in the same way as it would be possible with the normal glaze.

lauren · Aug 03, 2015, 13:55:32

Copy that. Thank you for the insight.
Regards,
Lauren

lauren · Aug 06, 2015, 23:25:30

Peter, Today I received an opinion about this plate from a member of the Asianart forum,
They said, " Appears to be Vietnamese blue and white from the 15th century. However, I don't know if it's period or repro. "
Do you think I should research this further as Vietnamese or do you see too many signs that it is definitely a reproduction? Did this color blue exist in Vietnam?
Regards,
Lauren

peterp · Aug 07, 2015, 07:22:14

You should not forget what was mentioned regarding covered crackles. If they ARE covered, then this settles it. And the blue tone too, this is completely abnormal, such a bright blue on a grayish base is hardly possible, unless it is a chemical pigment.
Why should it be from the 15th century but have decoration elements that were discontinued in the 14th century. And at last, that porcelain body could at the most be about Qing dynasty, or newer, in my view.

lauren · Aug 07, 2015, 10:35:44

Thanks Peter :) The crackles are not covered and they are random. I will dig a little deeper and let you know if I find out anything. Nevertheless, if we discover its not real, at least this is a good exemplar of a copy for forensic study.
Regards,
Lauren

lauren · Aug 07, 2015, 10:40:35

Hi Peter,
I just looked at my earlier post and I am sorry what I said was convoluted and coming from a layman. I only meant to say it was not a crackle glaze applied that was decorative ie the vases I have seen that actually are designed to crack in the kiln for decorative purposes. I had a Korean celadon vase like this once. The crackle in this charger in question is not in the clay as you pointed out because it cannot be. The crackle is definitely only on a very old glaze on this item and there is no crackle covered by any glaze. I apologize for not being more clear in my earlier post.
Regards,
Lauren