Unglazed Blue and White porcelain unmarked fish bowl planter

[Thefinder]

Hi! I need some information about this one! I know its old but i realy dont know how many years? As you can see on the picture, there's a lot of rust spots and a big one from 1 inch to the bottom
The bowl height: 12 inches. Diameter: 14.5 inches,
There's some sand at the bottom and rust spots too!

So, if someone can help me on this one, i'll appreciate!

Thank you!

[Stan]

This is modern, not more than 20 years I think, the decoration is very sloppy, made for tourists Im sure, looks Chinese, but the decoration is modern.

[Thefinder]

Really!! So how the rusts spots can appear after only 20 years? I tought the rusts spots only appear after 100 years. The lady told me she bought it from a import/export in the biginning of the 80's

[peterp]

Rust spots can be artificially added. You need to enlarge to see if it has grown out of the glaze.
The top rim shows transfer printing, as do many branches on the inside.
The fine outlines on the outer decoration could also be transfer, while the filling is hand-painted.
The decoration overall is not executed as they normally do with Chinese decorations. Not sure if it is Chinese or just imitating Chinese motifs.

[Thefinder]

I try to enlarge the pictures, but my camera is not good enough. To answer the question, yes they growned out of the glaze. The big rust spot is particulary without glaze the other ones, you can see a little part without glaze. 

[peterp]

Not sure if we are talking about the same thing, but even then, rust spots are not an absolute age sign. You need perhaps a 40x magnifier and it will look like a stone or something else embedded in ice (in winter). You can see the part within/under the ice also, and it is less clear. Sometimes the rust spot has a three dimensional look. In the picture below it looks flat.
Rust can also be painted on or iron oxide embedded artificially; so holding on to one single age sign does not help. Many can be imitated, that is what makes Chinese porcelain more difficult to authenticate. The fakers reproduce almost anything.
However, the use of this type of transfer printing is virtually final, because in China transfer printing  did not start until later in the 20th century.

[Thefinder]

Thanks you for the tips! But is it possible that the bowl is a copy made from a long time ago? I've seen on an other site (i dont remember which one, cause i've seen so much on past 2 weeks) that is possible the maker's use transfer printing by hand to reproduce an older one? That would explain the rust spots on it. They really looks like the same on very old porcelains i've seen on . Here's more pictures from the rust spots on the fish bowl and the 3 plates. Another question, if they not old, how come i can't find one like these on the net?

[Thefinder]

Here's the pictures for the plates.

[peterp]

  > Another question, if they not old, how come i can't find one like these on the net?
Because they were not necessarily mass-produced in porcelain factories. Even today, in Jingdezhen there are many small workshops that are hand-painting porcelain. They are unlikely to make large numbers.

Picture 118.jpg shows no bubbles, and the blue color is flat. The bubbles should be uneven in size and visible over the blue color, causing sometimes a slight blur in the edge, where the blue meets the white glaze. There should be 'some' bubbles. None of them means modern methods were used to remove them from the clay. Not sure about the rust spot, though.

The bottom picture is most conclusive. It is almost always the most indicative factor showing whether an item is old or newer.
This type of foot rim can only be from the 20th century. In addition, the radius connecting foot rim and interior base area is too pronounced. This also usually means 20th century, it can also mean that a paste injection process was used for making the body. Hand made porcelain has normally no radius, or only an almost imperceptible one caused by the glaze.
As to picture 135.jpg, this is definitely transfer printed. You will see that each segment (consisting of two rectangular spirals), in every aspect, resembles the neighbouring element exactly. That is because the same transfer source was used for each of them.

That is how it goes in the beginning. No one of those experienced in Chinese porcelain can say they never bought fakes or newer items. We all did in the beginning, and some do still so occasionally... we just learn from such mistakes and reduce the error ratio next time.    :-)

[Thefinder]

Is this what you mean by uneven visible bubbles over the blue color?

[Stan]

This looks printed as well but the blue is under the glaze and there appears to be bubbles in the white ground glaze.

[peterp]

No, bubbles are in the glaze. Those indentations are caused by different things.

In my view the enlarged picture 118.jpg should show bubbles, if there were any in the glaze; and you would certainly recognize them as such, if there were any. Magnification should be sufficient in this picture. No bubbles means the glaze was made with modern methods, eliminating these. Only newer glazes have none at all.

[Stan]

Hi Peter, could you tell us if the newer white glaze is more refined than the old, and if that is what makes the bubbles in the older white ground glazes or is the newer a different material completely?

[peterp]

I do not know Stan. That requires research into the glazes, which I was unable to do in depth, yet.
What I know is that it is a quality matter, like with the clay. At times of higher production quality, like in the 18th century, the bubbles were smaller and more even than before and after that. In the 20th century, when modernization started, the bubbles were reduced until there were none anymore. I could not tell if that is due to the introduction of appliances or a change of material, although the glaze is different now.

[Stan]

Thanks Peter.