Large blue and white planter.

[Stan]

Hi Peter, I just purchased this at an auction, the blue color looks like it could be from the Qianlong period, it is not marked but in the blue decoration you can see pin hole marks where they used pin hole marks to mark the subject matter before painting, could you tell me if you think it is from the period, it has pinholes, rust marks and glaze fractures from when it was fired also under a loop there are large bubbles around the blue where it meets the white, it goes from large to small bubbles and their is a lot of ware on this as well, your expertise is appreciated, I will post 10 photo's for viewing, thanks.

[Stan]

Here are 4 more photo's to view.

[Stan]

Here are the last set of photo's, thanks for viewing.

[peterp]

Stan, can you upload a picture of the bottom, only partial, I would like to see the lines caused by the throwing more closely. Also, a picture showing the edge of the glaze where it meets the unglazed foot rim might help. I have no problem with the decoration itself being mid-Qing, but I am not sure about the hue of blue for this period. The pin pricks you mention are not the little holes in the center of the pine needles? Those would not be man made...

This is not visible clearly in the pictures, but the top rim decoration is intriguing. Are there birds or tortoises visible behind the ruyi and floral decoration?

[Stan]

Hi Peter, I had a hard time again trying to match the same blue, it was a cloudy and sunny day and many tries to get these pictures they are close, here are the photo's you requested, at this time of day and the outside lighting seemed to agree with my camera, earlier I could not get a photo of the pin pricks in the drawing, in photo 11.jpg shows the tiny pricks in the drawn blue decoration, it is through out the blue decoration, and on the top decoration there are only the rue and floral decoration, here are three more photos to view, thanks Peter,

[peterp]

Thanks Stan.
Sorry, but I am in doubt about the bottom. Probably late Qing dynasty, in my view.
The traces from throwing on the wheel, and what appears to be chatter marks seem to be exceptionally strong. I am not sure what they mean, but I would not expect them on Qianlong/Jiaqing items.
Up to now I have found no explanation what the spiral lines mean, except that some are apparently from a metal wheel, which normally would only have been available late in the Qing dynasty. This one does not look like those spirals, though. Then there are the ray-like lines. I cannot explain them. The chatter marks visible on earlier porcelain are the traces of shaving the bottom, they are usually irregular and caused by the uneven motion of a wooden wheel. There should be no spiral from throwing, if the bottom was shaved. Here are both types of lines together, and this is puzzling.

I can only say that this is probably Qing dynasty. If it were not for the bottom, I would think about mid-Qing, but the bottom... You will have to be on the lookout for information on other unglazed bottoms of larger items of the period.

[peterp]

Stan, actually I have been looking for information on the bottom problem. I have such an item too and saw again one yesterday.
I would like to know when exactly western wheels or metal turned wheels were introduced in China. I have an item that looks perfectly like old Longquan, except for the turned bottom.

Is your item very heavy? In the pictures it looks as if the bottom is sagging a bit.
I have been asking myself if the lines could be caused by some support it was standing on while being worked on.

[Stan]

Hi Peter, yes this is very heavy, it is 45 cm wide and 26.7 cm tall and it weighs 22.2 lbs, so it is very heavily potted, I thought the same thing about the chatter marks and the circular rings. On the inside of the vase there is also chatter marks on the bottom side-inside the planter, thats the first time I have seen that, I also attributed that to the size and weight.

[Stan]

If you do find out when the western steel potters wheel was first introduced to China please let me know, the rings on this planter are perfectly centered which leads me to think that it happened all at the same time and was probably a more modern wheel like you say. thanks Peter.