Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl

[hoogenbosch67]

Several age signs:

Please tell me if I am correct see photos:

Underglaze blue white fishbowl decoration Qing dynasty [ late qianlong ]

measures height 55cm width 60cm

Glaze contractions
Firing faults or rust spots
Cracks, scratches (large ones)
late qianlong blue color or kangxu blue color

[hoogenbosch67]

Extra photos

[hoogenbosch67]

Extra photos

[Stan]

I think the double swirl decoration near the top and the color blue would make this a later piece maybe 1st half of the 20th century, in my opinion.

[hoogenbosch67]

Any other opinions?

[peterp]

The swirl decoration Stan mentioned leaves three possibilities, Ming, 20th century Chinese, Japanese. Ming is out of question. Most of the decoration does look Chinese, so Japanese is unlikely. Leaves 20th century. I would say a few decades old, at the most.

[hoogenbosch67]

Peter and Stan thanks very much. The only remarque I can make and the response didnt matter for the seller. It was a 60-65 year old man who sold me this bowl. I asked him if he knew where it came from and he told me it was bought by his mother and to him it was always in his family. So the maximum age should go back to around 1920/1930 If his mother bought the bowl as NEW condition. Greetings

[Stan]

People can say anything these days, and older folks can get confused as well, anytime you see a bottom like this, it should raise a red flag, the brown dirty bottom was added to make it look older than it is.

[hoogenbosch67]

Hello Peter, You are sure the expert but I cannot follow your reasoning. I read the ebook (which was very good) and from this I tookthe conclusion to focus first on age signs.

For the fishbowl, you only look for the double swirl decoration and not for the age signs!.

On the internet I found and equal swirl decoration (respected auctioneer) with the following details of an auction object. Why is the swirl possible in the ming period and then only in the 20th century period (nothing in between)??

Description auction object: Fishbowl yellow fondcolor en famille verte, deceoration with landscapes and royalty 19th century H 34 cm - Diameter 40,5 cm (attached pictures)

Thanks for your help, I am trying to get a better understanding of what I have to look for. I live in Belgium near the Netherlands and it seems that the dutch VOC (dutch east india company) imported a lot of chinese products here from the 16th and 17th century.

[peterp]

(part 1)
First, you should understand that anything can be faked, including age signs, etc. The painted decoration is the part that is most easily copied. Everything to do with the fired clay body or glaze is a different matter. Even if there are age signs, they must be used together with other factors for evaluating age, never alone. There should always be a number of factors, including age signs being the first step in identification. The decoration is part of that too. On the other hand, if only a single verified factor is incorrect for a supposed era, then the whole cannot be from that era. There are a few factors that are almost absolute in denying a certain period or age.

This is something that I am writing up about right now. Some of the decorative elements will also be mentioned in the next ebook. But that is meant for intermediate level, which requires some prior knowledge regarding age signs. I am sure if that had been included in the current ebook, many readers would omit the age signs and jump to premature conclusions because of the more easily recognizable decoration elements. Age signs are the most basic and reliable evaluation factors, but not the only ones.

The item you display above has a colored double swirl band. During the Qing dynasty the swirls were interconnected all around, the colored double swirl is the only type I know of, that did exist. That is usually found on polychrome items from the late Qing dynasty (Guangxu reign), and later. 

The emphasis here is on "colored". In my experience the 'no double swirl rule' applies to underglaze blue porcelain even in the late Qing dynasty. I do not think I ever saw a Qing dynasty underglaze blue item with double swirl decoration, that was not in doubt.

[peterp]

(part 2)
Generally, decoration elements may have exceptions, but to me the double swirl is one of the more reliable evaluation factors.
But, there were other decoration elements that draw doubt, on your bowl, which I did not mention. For example the decoration on the very top of the rim is difficult to account for in a traditional frame. That is not a common decoration on traditional Chinese porcelain.

Further, the size of fish bowls is also a question. As far as I know they were generally smaller in the old times, although there are exceptions.
What I recommend to do is to keep it and wait until you see a similar one that comes with age related information. We all have items that we keep for years because we are not sure what we have; that is the nature of collecting.  :-)

PS: The bowl in the pictures you uploaded could be late Qing to early republic, rather on the later side, in my view.

[hoogenbosch67]

Peter, Thanks very much for the detailed explication. I will continue posting objects I find here in Belgium and The Netherlands and trying to give an identification by myself. Greetings Jan

[hoogenbosch67]

PART 1/2 Hello,

With Peters information I continued my research to look for equal looking giant bowls. It seems that its more a jardiniere than a fishbowl with Lotus blossom decoration. I tried to find pictures from blue white giant jardinieres/fishbowls with double swirl and fullswirl decoration from different ages (Ming to 19th/20th century). In the following list of links you will find my research (7 links)

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www.alaintruong.com/archives/2010/09/01/18951764.html
www.alaintruong.com/archives/2009/11/08/15727760.html
www.bonhams.com/auctions/15288/lot/6352/
Wanli Period

[hoogenbosch67]

PART 2/2 continued

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www.eliteauction.com/catalogues/111012/view.php?id=141
www.1stdibs.com/furniture/building-garden/planters-jardinieres/pair-chinese-export-large-blue-white-fish-bowls-jardinieres/id-f_494169/
PAIR Chinese Export Large Blue & White 'Fish Bowls'/Jardinieres

www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2013/chinese-works-of-art-n08974/lot.166.html
A MING-STYLE COPPER-RED AND UNDERGLAZE-BLUE VASE
QING DYNASTY, 18TH / 19TH CENTURY
www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-large-blue-and-white-fish-bowl-5719648-details.aspx
A LARGE BLUE AND WHITE FISH BOWL
KANGXI PERIOD (1662-1722)

[peterp]

I have looked at the linked items.
Alain Truong's site is mainly listing the items of various auction houses.
- 1st link to Doyle's item:  yes, this is a double swirl; is it 19th century? Not sure. It would be an exception of the "swirl" rule, if it is.
- 2nd link to Sotheby's item: not sure if this is a swirl variation, or if this is something else, like a stylized wave formation. This is apparently Ming. But this is still a double link, not a continuous link all around. I will explain below. This is different from what you have on your bowl.
-3rd link (Bonhams): there is no swirl decoration
- 4th link (Elite): this item looks new to me
- 5th link (1stdibs): (I would rather not say in public what I think of this, so in future, please do not post links to items like this)
The description says: "in the late Kangxi style" ... not sure if this means the style is Kangxi (1644-1722) or Guangxu (1875-1908), which is also called "Kangxi revival" by some. However, the decoration "style" resembles neither of the two, or any other "style" from the Qing dynasty. I wonder if this item would fit into any time before the late 20th century.
-6th link (Sotheby's): This is the same decoration as the 2nd link. See explanation below.
- 7th link: this is a different type of decoration
Term as used here:
"swirl" = ? in Chinese, which means usually a square shaped decoration.


Now to the details of this decoration. I think there is some misconception, we may talk of different things.
The swirl decoration of your item is the blue line. I tried to mark it here. It is a double swirl: