2 Famille Verte Plates

kardinalisimo · Mar 15, 2015, 07:50:59

I guess the mark is spurious. I see some scratches and wear but not sure if these are recent or antique pieces.
Thanks

kardinalisimo · Mar 15, 2015, 07:54:44

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Stan · Mar 15, 2015, 09:06:37

These plates look like they Japanese kutani, but I have never seen one with a Qianlong mark like this before?

peterp · Mar 15, 2015, 09:33:21

Could it be a Chinese imitation?
Stan, did you note that although hairstyle, etc. seems to be right, the hair itself differs from actual Japanese hair? The hair should have much more bulk, I think.

Stan · Mar 15, 2015, 10:23:59

I think it is Chinese late 20th century, there are a lot fake Imari coming out of China today. I bought a charger from a dealer in China awhile back, it is the best fake I have ever seen with out a mark on the bottom even the spurs on the bottom, if you notice there is no age signs and every thing else looks crisp like it just came out of the factory, but with a Chinese mark it could hardly be a fake, maybe a new reproduction made for the Japanese market?

peterp · Mar 15, 2015, 11:03:59

Just wondering what they get out of this...a Japanese decoration and a Qianlong mark.
This to both the Japanese and the Chinese that it is not authentic.

kardinalisimo · Mar 15, 2015, 11:19:34

As Peter pointed out, the hairdos are not right for Geishas. Plus they are usually pictured with black shoes. As for being Kutani, I would expect more asymmtrical composition with some reserves and geometrical shapes.
Don't know if the plates appear with no age signs on the pictures but they have good amount of scratches, gilt loss on the rim(that's easy to rub off), few rust spots.

Stan · Mar 15, 2015, 23:27:50

Im stumped on this one to, the mark is obviously spurious and to me it looks like they had a hard time writing it, even if the mark was added later it still does not make sense, how wide are these plates, the one I purchased is 18" wide

kardinalisimo · Mar 16, 2015, 03:04:00

They are 9 3/8" in diameter.
The reason I think they are not late 20th century is that the foot rims re slightly slanted on the outside and straight on the inside. I don't think I've seen modern Chinese or Japanese plates with such foot rims. The first are usually oblique on the inside and the second in most of the cases straight on both sides or slanted on the inside.
I am thinking is it possible these to be Chinese export for the Japanese market? The problem is that, if I am not wrong, the Chinese exported porcelain to Japan mainly till the end of Ming, maybe early Qing. They did blue and white as well as wucai, some of which was similar to the Japanese kutani(ko-kutani).

Here are some exports for the Japanese market ( don't know how trustful is the information on these websites)

m.skinnerinc.com/news/news/asian-art-buddhist-sculpture-ceramics-porcelain-auction-2695t-2701m/
[links removed by admin - please do not post links to commercial sites and information sites that are not verified - it may look as if we are endorsing them. Best is to keep to sites of museums or other institutions of learning. In doubt, please ask first. Thank you.]

But again, why would there be Qianlong marks if these were meant to be for the Japanese market? By the way, the marks appear to be under the glaze (can't tell for sure) so not very likely to have been added later.

Stan · Mar 16, 2015, 03:45:48

I have seen plates at the local auction here in Portland Oregon that had Chinese 18th century bottoms but were clearly 20th century and the sale price reflected that, anything that will sell can be faked even the rust spots. Period examples would have ware from use, especially plates.

kardinalisimo · Mar 16, 2015, 04:12:49

I agree that anything could be faked. Usage signs would be the easiest one to be replicated by scrubbing, scratching etc. There is one more thing. I agree that those signs have to be present on old pieces but some will show more than others. I am pretty sure there are pieces that have been in collections for hundred years and being taken good care of. On the other hand you may have antique porcelain, not that old,that was constantly in use and being in really bad condition. So the extent of the age signs shown on porcelain are a bit questionable to me. Footrims also, make difference if the piece was sitting on display, had felt on the bottom or was directly touching the surface underneath.